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Wikipedia and those romantic Zionists

Wikipedia for IsraelIn researching the evolution of Zionist terrorism, from clandestine militias like Bar-Giora, to Hashomer, Haganah, Etzel, and the pro-Nazi Stern Gang, I came upon this opening paragraph in Wikipedia. Describing Bar-Giora, it began: “On September 28, 1907, a group of activists from Poalei Zion gathered in Yitzhak Ben-Zvi’s tiny Jaffa apartment. There was no furniture, the men sat on the floor in a circle and used a crate for a desk.”
Some helpful Wiki elf was obviously feeling sentimental.

Here’s the full paragraph, one third of the only more nostalgic full article:

On September 28, 1907, a group of activists from Poalei Zion gathered in Yitzhak Ben-Zvi’s tiny Jaffa apartment. There was no furniture, the men sat on the floor in a circle and used a crate for a desk. Inspired by Israel Shochat’s ideas, they agreed that the only way to fulfill the dream of becoming a Jewish nation was to rise up and assert themselves through cultivating and defending their land themselves. The state of things in the early years of the 20th Century in Palestine, was such that Jewish farmers employed Arabs to work their farms and protect them, and in turn were subject to landlords, such as Edmond de Rothschild’s agents. There was much discontent and disillusionment.

Thus I was sparked to delve into the oft-derided accusation that Wikipedia is biased toward Israel. Compare the paragraph above, to the introductions of Wiki articles about militant Muslim or Arab groups. Start with Wiki’s official terrorist list and judge for yourself.

CAMERA
Electronic Intifada documented an interesting story last year, when they interrupted the Zionist site CAMERA from organizing commando edit raids on Wikipedia to ensure Israel was always shown in a favorable light. In its report, EI leaked the email thread which, by the way, serves as a great instruction manual for aspiring Wiki editors. We’ll reprint the conversation below.

The episode is documented in several articles. Beginning with EI exclusive: a pro-Israel group’s plan to rewrite history on Wikipedia, The Electronic Intifada, 21 April 2008. (Reprinted in Global Research 4/24.)

Alex Beam, of The Boston Globe, broke the story in print on May 6, 2008, in War of the virtual Wiki-worlds.

Next came Israel Shamir, Wiki, the Chaos Controlled, who asserted that CAMERA’s interrupted zeal masked Wikipedia’s already Zionist admins. Shamir’s continuing battle with Wikipedia can be followed in wiki/Talk).

IRGUN, ET AL
Hashomer clandestine paramilitary malitiaAbout the clandestine pre-Israel paramilitary organizations, which eventually became the Israel Defense Force? Their history is very interesting. The Zionist policy of using “retaliation” to justify strikes, started right from the beginning.

When the Jewish settlers, many of whom were immigrating into Palestine illegally, felt that British authorities were not giving them preferred treatment in disputes with local Arabs, they organized private armies to quell Arab unrest over their expanding landholdings.

During WWI, these fighters, formed as Hashomer, worked behind the lines with an intelligence branch named Nili, to help the British drive out the Turks. When the Paris Treaty of 1919 did not yield a Zionist state as promised, the militants reformed as Haganah. Commando units under FOSH attacked Arabs during the revolts of the 1930s, which became HISH to fight on the side of the Allies in WWII, meanwhile the Haganah Bet, better known as the Etzel, or Irgun, unleashed terrorist attacks against the British.

In 1938 Irgun leader David Raziel, defined Israel’s prevailing policy of DEFENSIVE ATTACK:

“The actions of the Haganah alone will never be a true victory. If the goal of the war is to break the will of the enemy – and this cannot be attained without destroying his spirit – clearly we cannot be satisfied with solely defensive operations… Defensiveness by way of offensiveness, in order to deprive the enemy the option of attacking, is called active defense.”

During WWII, Irgun kept up its fight against the British, in collaboration with Nazi Germany. In exchange for FIRST) the promise of Palestine being made an independent Zionist state, and SECOND) that Jews of Occupied Europe be allowed to emigrate to Israel, instead of the Nazi suggested destination of Gibraltar.

After the war, Irgun scored its most dramatic attacks, before and during the formation of Israel. Widely denounced by international critics as a terrorist organization, Irgun became the right-wing predecessor to today’s Likud Party.

Wikipedia describes this episode in a tentative fashion: An offshoot of Irgun, better known as the STERN GANG, (but the Wiki article is named by its official Lihi title), tried to make a pact with the Nazis, but never heard back. Later Lihi was honored for its historic contribution to the establishment of Israel.

43 thoughts on “Wikipedia and those romantic Zionists

  1. Under what laws was the Jewish emigration to “Palestine” illegal? Considering Palestine was, itself, just a territory, as part of the Ottoman Empire, and not a sovereign state with independent legal status, I’m interested in what laws were broken by the Jews? As for the Stern Gang trying to make a “pact” with the Nazis, the pact would have been based on mutual interests: the Nazis wanted Germany rid of the Jewish population and the Stern Gang envisioned Germany’s Jews being transplanted to Palestine. At the time, the Nazis were debating options for dealing with the Jews, however, unfortunately, they decided upon the Final Solution, which effectively ended any further discussions with the Stern Gang.

  2. When the British were charged with keeping the peace over the territories, they had to halt or curb Jewish migration when it inflamed Arab resentment. At first, because Jewish European money was inflating land values and pricing the locals out, (Like Americans in Costa Rica today for example) and second, when Zionists were simultaneously observed in diplomatic circles pushing for the colonial powers to grant them exclusive claim to all of the land.

  3. Still, on what grounds was Jewish emigration into Palestine illegal? From my vantage point, the British had legal control of Palestine, before the Brits, the Ottoman Empire controlled Palestine the previous 400 years and before the Turks, the Mamluks controlled Palestine for a few hundred years. If you can show me proof in the form of land deeds that large amounts of Arabs were illegally dispossessed of their land, then I’ll cede your point that their land was stolen. However, I’m not so sure that the Turks’ bookkeeping records from 400 or 500 years ago would even clarify the situation. The Arabs living in Palestine at the time were poor nomads, they weren’t wealthy enough to own large tracts of land, so, while it might have been unfortunate for them to have lost land, I believe you have to show ownership of land before you can make credible accusations of actual theft of land.

  4. What a pile of bs you spout, Mitch. You are the ‘poor nomad’ that has landed on Not My Tribe while wandering around on the internet throwing out crap Right and Left. If I knew as little about the world as you seem to know I’d at least have the intelligence to keep quiet.

    The British and Turks were occupiers of the world of their times and manipulated peoples dominated by them according to their own needs. When the Brits started allowing Jewish immigration into Palestine it was as the occupying bosses over other peoples’ lands. They did this to allow them to use the two groups against each other.

    Now I know that with your present sense of the world you haven’t a clue that occupations of other peoples’ territories is today considered as illegal as slavery is today, but get a clue how bout it and use your little head? The Jewish immigration began as a project of European Jews trying to copy cat their own persecution by engaging their own abusers into projects where they would immigrate out of the territories and lands Jews were being persecute in, into lands where they would be allied with colonial occupiers that didn’t give a damn about them but could conveniently use them as a battering ram against others. And that’s where the European Jews are to this day, a battering ram for the US Empire.

  5. Jesus Christ, Tony, you seriously need some Valium. You gratuitously insult someone merely for disagreeing with you. You seem to have a real hatred of Jews — why?

  6. >When the Brits started allowing Jewish immigration into Palestine it was as the occupying bosses over other peoples’ lands”

    What made it other peoples’ lands?

  7. >Mitch, if you got any stupider I wouldn’t know how?

    People merely living somewhere are not necessarily lawful residents. There are things called deeds and land titles. Show me the documentation that they all were legal residents. Otherwise, they were squattors.

  8. By the way, given the Turks were Muslim, why did they not grant Palestinians, also Muslim, statehood during the 400-year reign of the Ottoman Empire?

  9. >It’s game show-speak, Sweets.

    A Hamas-produced game show, perchance? You know, like the Hamas cartoons that show Mickey Mouse suicide bombing Israeli nursery schools.

  10. Back to my original question: Why did the Muslim Turks not grant statehood to their Muslim Palestinian brethren during their 400-year Ottoman regime?

  11. For those who are interested, the mouse that was employed by the Hamas terrorist group was named “Farfour.” The mouse resembled Mickey and represented a violation of Disney’s intellectual property rights. Given the nature of the Hamas terrorist organization, it is not surprising that the terrorist group used a Mickey look-alike to advance a hateful message and that the terrorist group had no respect for Disney’s intellectual property rights.

  12. >me thinks the Zionists have their wee people everywhere. From governments to Wiki, they are everywhere carrying out their hasbara for Israel.

    Well, after all, Jews do control the world. Didn’t you get that from reading the Protocols?

  13. Mitch, I think Tony Logan (above) covered it all in his conversations with you. Never mind though, the rest of the world now clearly sees though israel’s lies. They have become 21st century nazis and we have seen the transforamtion with our own eyes, dispite Israel’s attempts to censor the media.

    How does it feel to support the most hated country in the world?

    enjoy it. wont you?

  14. Ban, if Israel is the most hated country in the world, a large factor is the hatred of Jews that has existed for thousands of years. Prior to the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948, much anti-Semitism was rooted in the fact that Jews did not have a homeland. Ironically, now that Jews do have a homeland, anti-Semitism has seen a resurgence. Given much of the “world” turned its back on the plight of the Jews murdered in cold blood in the Holocaust, and given the world continues to be indifferent to genocide in Darfur and human rights atrocities around the world, I don’t really think the “world” is in a position to pass judgement on Israeli policies.

  15. Wrong you are Denise. Since this recent genocide I have witnessed many people I know who haven ow changed their opinions of israel. In fact, I do not know one person who has not changed their views since this massacre. People watched Israeli officicals refuse to show any humanity towards the children, refuse to admit anything they targeted “might” have been civilians. In addition, thsoe of us who write online witnessed the crap being spouted at anyone who “dared” ti critisize israel’s actions” for to do so is (according to people like yourself) to be anti-semitic, which, is bulls*it to be honest.

    This tired argument you write about people always being “anti-semitic” is way past it’s sell by date. People have seen past this nonsense now and dont buy it and also feel insulted by it to be honest.

    Israel supporters can do themselves a favour and start behaving like human beings, admit their country’s faults, and stop labeling people who critisize israel as some hwo being antisemitic, really get a new argument………..

  16. Denise, one more thing. Why is it that you feel you can somehow lessen what Israel has done by comparing the crisis in Darfur? It’s these smoke and mirror comments like this that just make you look even more foolish. I could say that you are Anti-Irish, because where was your country when we were being murdered and starved to death? We had a holocaust too, you know? You don’t own the word “holocaust” it is not owned by Israel and Jews. But that does not give you the right to murder people, because you had a “holocaust” Perhaps you will have peace one day when you stop believing the nonsense your Government spreads. All this “never again” garbage, as if the world would allow your annihilation, seriously, Israel with the 4th largest army in the world, with nuclear weapons, and “best friends forever” with the USA, give me a break! People don’t buy your hasbara anymore. So when does the mandate of victimhood expire? And at what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity? When do you become just as accountable as the rest of us in the world? When that happens, then world opinion will change towards Israel, until then, Israel is just a violent rogue state in breach of over 60 UN resolutions and war crimes.

  17. Ban, you are merely ranting accusations and assertions against Israel based on emotion and not connected with fact. To dismiss anti-Semitism today as “past its selling date”, when there is an alarming resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and elsewhere, in which synagogues are being burned, in which Jews are murdered in Mumbai because of being Jewish, when Daniel Pearl is beheaded after it was demanded by those who slaughtered him to acknowledge he was a Jew, is naiive and, in plain language, ignorant. Your comments about the need for Israel to “behave” itself seems to ignore the fact that Israel has been “behaving” itself with numerous Arab neighbors in the Middle East, including “behaving” itself with the Palestinians in the West Bank. Maybe you can get in touch with Hamas and suggest they “behave” themselves and renounce violence against Israeli citizens and vows of genocide against the Jewish people. As for your laughable statement asserting the world would never allow annihilation of Israel, the Iranian regime calling for such a thing would snicker at you and those who think that Iran is developing nuclear power in order to generate electricity. As for “people not buying” my hasbara, recent polls in America show an unchanged allegiance to Israel among the population and, interestingly, a noticeable decline in support for a Palestinian state (with which I disagree), perhaps influenced by the years of Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Jewish “victimhood” expired in 1948 with the rightful reestablishment of Israel. It has since been replaced by Palestinian victimhood, of being forced to live in refugee camps for 60 years, of being denied a homeland and, now, the new anti-Israeli buzzword, of being subjected to apartheid. Difference is, Jews truly yearned for a homeland. The evidence suggests that Palestinians do not truly want statehood as much as they would like to see the elimination of Israel.

  18. ‘The evidence suggests that Palestinians do not truly want statehood as much as they would like to see the elimination of Israel.’

    Desiring that the character of a ‘Jewish State’ be changed to one that respects the rights of all people, Palestinians included is not some evil desire, Denny. It is not the same as wanting to kill off all Jews either.

    You know all that already but just want to confuse people by prattling off the same venom nonstop.

  19. “Desiring that the character of a ‘Jewish State’ be changed to one that respects the rights of all people, Palestinians included is not some evil desire, Denny. It is not the same as wanting to kill off all Jews either. ”

    I imagine your quest for the respect of the rights of all people extends to Jews living in the Middle East. The few remaining Jews living in Arab nations face religious persecution. Muslims routinely disparage Jews as having descended from pigs and apes. Christianity is forbidden in many Muslim nations. Presumably, a sovereign Palestinian state will forbid Jews. At the same time, Arabs have more human rights in Israel than even imaginable in an Arab nation.

  20. ‘At the same time, Arabs have more human rights in Israel than even imaginable in an Arab nation.’

    Nonsense from the IP that cannot even truthfully represent who is writing to us.

  21. Denise you cant be serious, now you are making me laugh:)

    “Ban, you are merely ranting accusations and assertions against Israel based on emotion and not connected with fact. To dismiss anti-Semitism today as “past its selling date,” when there is an alarming resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and elsewhere”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Listen Denise, who are you trying to kid here? I’ve already told you that no one buys the nonsense you and your IDF Israeli mouthpieces spew. Here is the actual reality that you need to begin to deal with:

    Firstly, what is alarming is the fact that you support a rogue state that willfully murdered over 400 children, And you have the audacity to wonder “why” people have done these things? This is the reality Israel has created all on it own, now you must deal with that fact of life.

    So cry “anti-semitism” all you want, because we have seen what your rogue state can and will do to innocent children without one iota of compassion. There is a word for it, it’s called “genocide” and you of all people should cartainly be able to recognise genocide when you see it.

    Additonally, I would say you are emotional” as I am very calm sitting here sipping a cup of tea whilst I attempt to converse with you. But I can certainly understand why you would be emotional, after all, the world has seen what your statlet has done and the world opinion has changed and you really hate that don’t you?

    But that is the problem when your lies catch up to you isn’t it. Thank God for the internet as Israel cannot control that venue, even though it made attempts to do so, see here:

    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/173770-Israel-hires-army-of-bloggers-to-fight-image-war

    All this to no avail, as the images the world saw are forever etched in the minds of good people who now know what the real goal of Israel is, extermination of Palestinians, and we won’t let you succeed, not any more.

  22. “I’ve already told you that no one buys the nonsense you and your IDF Israeli mouthpieces spew.”

    Another baseless and hyperbolic emotional outburst.

    “Firstly, what is alarming is the fact that you support a rogue state that willfully murdered over 400 children”

    This is a libelous charge. There is absolutey no credible evidence that the IDF has “willfully murdered” anyone, adult or child. The evidence demonstrates the opposite. I would not be surprised if there were rogue IDF troops, as in every battle, but, to smear the entire IDF is irresponsible. The IDF took great pains to minimize civilian casualties, going so far as to design special artillery that does not actually harm civilians,such as those Palestinians forced to stand on roofs of buildings to ward off IDF troops. Now, think about this: If Hamas really thought the IDF would “murder” the rooftop civilians, would they force them on the roofs knowing they’d be easy targets? Of course not. The IDF also put their guns down each day in order to allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza, ALL THE WHILE Hamas continued their assault on the IDF! Now, please cite other examples of such unilateral intra-war ceasefires to allow for humanitarian aid for a hostile population. While the IDF does not have a policy of targeting children, Hamas does, by using schools as military bases and forcing children to dig those tunnels for smuggling rockets. Such conduct constitutes war crimes. As does firing rockets at civilian Israelis.

    “So cry “anti-semitism” all you want, because we have seen what your rogue state can and will do”

    So, cry “rogue state” all you want. Israel has as much a right to self-defense and self-preservation as any other sovereign nation. Israel has shown more tolerance than other nations. No other nation would endure 8 years of constant rocket fire across its border without retaliation.

    The total count of civilian casualties in Gaza is in question as there is a dispute as to how many casualties were militants. Internet blogs, especially unreliable blogs, are not legitimate sources of such data.

    “All this to no avail, as the images the world saw are forever etched in the minds of good people who now know what the real goal of Israel is, extermination of Palestinians, and we won’t let you succeed, not any more”

    Again, events paint a dramatically different picture. It is Hamas whose charter calls for the genocide of Jews. It is Hamas that targets innocent Israeli children with suicide murderers. Public polls in Israel reflect widespread sentiment for a Palestinian state. Israel disengaging from Gaza, using the military to force Israelis from their homes, even exhuming the corpses of dead Israelis and leaving 400 vegetable and fruit greenhouses are all gestures that do not point to a strategy of extermination. Indeed, a case can be made that Israel ethnically cleansed itself out of Gaza. While there are no doubt Israelis who do not wish the Palestinians well, the Israeli government has repeatedly made overtures for peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians, going so far as to offer 97% of the West Bank and Gaza to Arafat, who subsequently walked away from peace negotiations and proceeded to inflict a reign of terror on Israel. Israel has a peace treaty with Fatah in the West Bank and is amenable to a treaty with Gazans, when they renounce violence and accept Israel’s right to exist itself.

  23. Ok Denise, here we go,

    You said:
    “””“I’ve already told you that no one buys the nonsense you and your IDF Israeli mouthpieces spew.”
    Another baseless and hyperbolic emotional outburst.”””””

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Now, now,Denise, I know all this is getting to you, what with all the murdering Israel has done and the sad fact that people no longer believe a word Israel says. But do try and remain calm

    Ok let’s get to it them shall we?

    You say:
    “This is a libelous charge. There is absolutey no credible evidence that the IDF has “willfully murdered” anyone, adult or child. The evidence demonstrates the opposite. “
    I say:
    Whoa there Nellie, what drugs are you taking. The evidence is the opposite? ROFLMAO You see this is exactly why people have no respect any longer for those who preach this crap like yourself. Try as you might, with all you little words of “poor little Israel” suffering, tut, tut, Denise, I hate to be the bearer of the truth, but the world has seen for themselves now, and you cannot take that back or erase it, or change it, or explain it away. It is what it is, and you and Israel will have to accept that and deal with it. You can start by admitting that the IDF used excessive force in civilian areas, thus causing the deaths of over 400 children and countless women. You can start by admitting that much, otherwise take your inhumane self elsewhere. Oh and btw, as we speak there is a group of British MP’s who just arrived in Gaza to investigate for themselves. Already they are calling for an investigation into Israeli war crimes. So are may other countries and organisations worldwide, including America thankfully. Now, let’s just see if Israel adheres to International law or not. Probably not, they never do, and this is yet another reason people have had enough of Israel’s behaviour. Why should other countries obey the law when Israel does not and flaunts it!

    Next:
    You say:
    “ALL THE WHILE Hamas continued their assault on the IDF! “

    I say
    Of course Hamas would continue an assault on the IDF, what planet are you on, you invaded their country!!!! Wake up and smell the coffee! If Israel was invaded would they not fight back? Seriously Denise, I can’t believe you actually said that as an argument for your case.

    You say:
    “Now, please cite other examples of such unilateral intra-war ceasefires to allow for humanitarian aid for a hostile population. “

    I say:
    Well, Israel did not even adhere to its own decision for a ceasefire of three hours a day so that aid could get in and ambulances could rescue injured people. BTW I love how you just called the entire population of Palestine “hostile” it just shows the bigotry and racisim that Israelis have for Palestinian people. According to that statement you just made, no Palestiniains are innocent, they are all “hostile” including the 2 years olds and 4 month olds your country murdered. But I guess Israel thinks it’s far better to kill them all off now whilst they are young so they wont trouble Israel later when they grow up. Everytime I read a comment like that it just makes me more sure of what I now believe about Israel and the majority of it’s population and supporters. And you should take note there, because what Israel just did has changed my views 180% and I am not the only one, there are millions around the world just like me now.

    You say:
    “While the IDF does not have a policy of targeting children, Hamas does, by using schools as military bases and forcing children to dig those tunnels for smuggling rockets. Such conduct constitutes war crimes. As does firing rockets at civilian Israelis. “

    I say:
    Well I have a few comments on this one. First, I remember very well the Zionist Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki who instilled haterd into the IDF soldiers before combat. Here are a few of his comments; “[There is] a biblical ban on surrendering a single millimeter of it [the Land of Israel] to gentiles, though all sorts of impure distortions and foolishness of autonomy, enclaves and other national weaknesses. We will not abandon it to the hands of another nation, not a finger, not a nail of it.” This is an excerpt from a publication entitled “Daily Torah studies for the soldier and the commander in Operation Cast Lead,” issued by the IDF rabbinate. The text is from “Books of Rabbi Shlomo Aviner,” who heads the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva in the Muslim quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem.

    The following questions are posed in one publication: “Is it possible to compare today’s Palestinians to the Philistines of the past? And if so, is it possible to apply lessons today from the military tactics of Samson and David?” “When you show mercy to a cruel enemy, you are being cruel to pure and honest soldiers. This is terribly immoral. These are not games at the amusement park where sportsmanship teaches one to make concessions. This is a war on murderers. ‘A la guerre comme a la guerre.'” And my personal favourite: “we will show no mercy on the cruel.”

    and then there is this:
    In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to “the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg” – the former rabbi at Joseph’s Tomb and author of the article “Baruch the Man,” which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on “soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you … to function according to the law ‘kill the one who comes to kill you.’ As for the population, it is not innocent … We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.”

    Link
    http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1058758.html

    So Denise, who is spewing hatred? Because this is unadulterated bigotry, hatred and racisim, and coming from a man of God??????? And you wonder why Hamas and Palestinians will not recognise Israels right to exist? Why should they, you don’t allow for their right to exist, unless it is under your imperialist jackboot, that is. You have got to look at the other side, even if it is painful to you, if you are ever to understand. Do you agree with what this Rabbi says and preaches to soldiers? Would you think that this would instil overkill in them perhaps?

    And so far as hamas using schools, enough of that nonsense as well, see here;
    Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth, what would you have them do, stand in an olive field with a sign on them so Israel forces can shoot them? Why don’t the Israeli solders get out of their panes and armoured tanks and go door to door to get those they are after, instead of bombing entire neighbourhoods killing hundreds of innocent people to get four or five Hamas leaders. Your casualty rate is a joke, your soldiers sit safely in planes and tanks pushing buttons and murdering people. The only war wound they will get is perhaps repetitive stress injury to their hands! All those bombed UN schools were under UN control and NO hamas were inside, yet you bombed them. And what about the main UN compound with all the food and supplies? That was insanely cruel and inhumane. John Ging, the head of UNWRA works with the IDF and they were very well aware of the location of each UN facility.

    Moving along now to the Next fallacy:
    You say:
    “So, cry “rogue state” all you want. Israel has as much a right to self-defense and self-preservation as any other sovereign nation. Israel has shown more tolerance than other nations. No other nation would endure 8 years of constant rocket fire across its border without retaliation. “

    I say:
    Denise, really, no one, including myself would deny Israel the right to defend itself, but that right applies to Palestine as well, even if you don’t like it. Israel has shown NO tolerance what so ever. It acts aggressively and without respect of international law of any kind. And that makes it a rogue state by definition! And the 8 years of rocket attacks? Here we go again, you fail to mention the years of blockades of Gaza, starving people, and your various attacks and raids into Palestine all during this so called ceasefire, the continued building of settlements on land you stole. All of these are acts of war Denise, all of them. Israle is just pissed off at Palestinians because of whom they chose to elect to government. When their election was held I still remember Bush making his speech to the world saying today the Palestinains would hold a democratic election. And ti was democratic because some of our people were there as observers. The trouble is Hamas won the majority and both Israle and the US were surprised. Why I do not know, ti should have come as NO surprise, given the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. So now, you want to punish an entire populatin because of whom they voted for. With that logic perhaps American should have been attacked because they elected Bush, see how stupid that is? So lets look at those eight years of rocket attacks you talk about:

    123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,487 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. This does not include the recent genocide in Gaza, so the numbers of Palestinian children will rise by the hundreds. Israel should be so proud of itself!

    UN Resolutions:

    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

    Here is the numbers of homes destroyed:

    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967

    Oh and then there is the little matter of stealing:

    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

    So Denise, why should the Palestinians feel all warm and fuzzy towards Israel? You are killing them, taking their land, acting with no regard for the law, your Army Rabbis teach hatred so the Soldiers will feel no remorse when they kill. Israel is no more civilised than Hamas, face it!

    Next Hasbara:

    You say:
    “The total count of civilian casualties in Gaza is in question as there is a dispute as to how many casualties were militants. Internet blogs, especially unreliable blogs, are not legitimate sources of such data.”

    I say;
    I’m just shaking my head at this silly statement. Denise, all joking aside, I want you to really grasp what I’m about to say. When I run into people like you who say these things about the casualties, it only confirms what I have now come to believe. That you will say anything, grasp at any straw in a vein attempt to justify the un-justifiable, it cannot be done, the numbers are far too great. When you and others make these statements you do no service to your cause or that of Israel. You only make enemies out of regular people who have seen otherwise and now know better. Can you not see that? You are no different than any other person like yourself whom I have run into online. I could be talking to any one of you. You are just an entity devoid of human thought or compassion for others aside from your beloved perfect Israel. I have much respect for Jews who have stood up against what took place and they have been called horrible names by those who hold the beliefs you do. You should thank them Denise, because they have done more for Israel than you have in world opinion. They have shown that Jews can be decent and that being critical of Israel’s actions or its govt and army does not make one anti-Semitic any more than being critical of American policy makes one anti-American. You should think about that.

    Next:

    You say:
    “Again, events paint a dramatically different picture. It is Hamas whose charter calls for the genocide of Jews.”

    I say:
    I think I covered this one when KI discussed the Rabbi who preached hate and bigotry to your troops. I see no difference between them and hamas. So your argument that Israel is somehow better falls short here.

    Next:
    You say:

    .”Public polls in Israel reflect widespread sentiment for a Palestinian state. Israel disengaging from Gaza, using the military to force Israelis from their homes, even exhuming the corpses of dead Israelis and leaving 400 vegetable and fruit greenhouses are all gestures that do not point to a strategy of extermination. Indeed, a case can be made that Israel ethnically cleansed itself out of Gaza. “

    I say:
    This is rich. Let’s just see Israel do this then. Because when they last removed some settlers they destroyed the home so that Palestinianss could not enjoy them when they were emptied. These so called “gestures” have not taken place, and have never taken place, right now they are mere words, nothing more. Israel never fully complies with any peace process.

    Here is a prophetic question to think about:
    Why is it that the only two men who ever attempted real peace between Israel and Palestine, who stood on the Whitehouse lawn and shook hands in front of bill Clinton, one was murdered in Israel by right wing Israelis and the other lived out his last days under siege in Palestine? Even when a Jew manages to get into office and wants to have real peace and a real peace process, the right wingnut Zionists in Israel murder him! These are you people Denise, they murder anyone, including one of their own, just so as to never have to give the Palestinians anything like a real life or peace or justice or any small concession. So I have absolutely NO faith what so ever in your so called “poll” otherwise your government would not have gone so far to the right if people believed as you claim they do. This “war” was for your election, it was a giant pissing contest for votes and the world knows this.

    Next:
    You say:
    “Israel has a peace treaty with Fatah in the West Bank and is amenable to a treaty with Gazans, when they renounce violence and accept Israel’s right to exist itself.”

    I say;
    Denise, Israel and America cannot pick and choose who to negotiate with. I know this first hand. I was involved in the Irish struggle for freedom and justice in the North. And if you think we would have peace today by the British govt and American govt only talking to one faction, you have rocks in your head. Hamas won a landslide, they are legally elected and have a clear mandate, by and for the people they represent. Any deals you may make with Fatah will get you no where. Fatah does not represent the entire population of Palestine, nor did they win a majority. In all sincerity here, Israel must recognise Hamas if you want them to recognise you. Making deals with weaker factions who don’t have the majority of support on the ground just because you can get a better deal off them, will gain you nothing; But Israel knows this, as does the USA. For real peace to ever come, all sides must be engaged, and that include Hamas. When, and if, Israel acts accordingly and gives Palestinians some measure of a reason to trust in a peace process,then, and only then will you ever get hamas to publicly say that Israel has a right to exist. And finally, this argument about hamas refusing to recognise Israel’s right to exists is silly in and of itself. I can sit here all day long and say I don’t recognise America’s right to exist, I can shout it from the rooftops, but it makes no real difference, and in the grand scale of things it means nothing. Israel has the 4th largest army in the world and you are worried about hamas saying this? You and Israel just use that phrase as a battering rod to hit Palestine with, and an excuse to not have peace.

    cheers

  24. “When they renounce violence” to the satisfaction of IDF and Likud.
    “There’s a question of reliable sources that some or most of the dead were or were not Militants”

    Well, the only “reliable’ source you cite is IDF.

    It’s really easy for the cops to say that a prisoner who died in custody, as a Really Close Analogy, had committed suicide, been killed by fellow inmates or died of natural causes, because the so-called “doctor” who does the diagnostic Post-Mortem is a deputized Coroner, in other words THEIR FELLOW PIGS.
    And it’s really easy to convict a dead man.

    Especially with enough “good citizens” who are too stupid to ask real questions and instead Accept As Truth Everything The Pigs Tell Them.

    Of COURSE IDF is really going to investigate any abuses by their Fellow PIGS.

    Sure they will. Four Legs Good, Two Legs BAAAAAAADDDD

    The Policeman is Your Friend.

    The Police would never arrest somebody Who Has Done Nothing Wrong.

    We know this because the Police Tell Us This And Some People Are Stupid Enough To Believe Everything They Are Told.

    The IDF didn’t commit heinous murders and we know this because They Say They Didn’t, And People Who Commit Heinous Murders Will Tell Us That They Did,

    And some people are stupid enough to believe everything they’re told.

    Comrade Napoleon is always right.

    War is Peace, Love is Hate, Ignorance is Strength, and Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

  25. Your post is mostly a rambling diatribe filled with invective and smears against Israel and the IDF, but, I will try to address key points.

    “as we speak there is a group of British MP’s who just arrived in Gaza to investigate for themselves. ”

    Let the investigative process take it’s course before you make baseless assertions about the IDF’s conduct in Gaza. Investigations are not conclusions, though, you are clearly anxious to jump to conclusions not in favor of Israel. Much ranting and raving emanated from the bash-Israel-at-every-turn camp about the alleged shooting into a Gazan school, and the IDF was recently cleared in a UN investigation. You know doubt were among those screaming about the alleged Jenin massacre,which, turns out, was nothing of the kind. There are even aerial videos of Arabs pretending to be carrying the dead in Jenin, where the “corpses” accidentally fell and got up by themselves. It would be comical were it no so sad and pathetic.

    “Of course Hamas would continue an assault on the IDF, what planet are you on, you invaded their country”

    *I* invaded whose country? Gaza is not a country. It is recognized as a political administrative division in the Palestine Territories, however, its final status has yet to be determined. Both Hamas and Fatah claim legitimacy over leadership of the Palestinian territories and neither recognizes the legitimacy of the other. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines “invasion” as the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder. Israel’s *defensive* military actions in Gaza do not meet this definition.

    “Israel has shown NO tolerance what so ever. It acts aggressively and without respect of international law of any kind.”

    An example of sweeping statements that comprise most of your post(s) based on emotion, not fact. Israel demonstrated tremendous restraint in tolerating Hamas’s rocket fire for several years before responding.

    “You can start by admitting that the IDF used excessive force in civilian areas, thus causing the deaths of over 400 children and countless women”

    Countless women? Can you be more precise? According to international law and rules of war, Israel had the right to extend its incursion into Gaza until its objective was met, that is, to disable Hamas, which is classified internationally as a terrorist group.

    “Of course Hamas would continue an assault on the IDF, what planet are you on, you invaded their country!!!! ”

    Israel responded to a series of acts of war committed by Hamas when it “invaded” Israel’s sovereignty with rocket fire. Israel was in accord with international law in seeking to protect its citizens and in responding to Hamas with military action.

    “Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.”

    Israel has no settlements or outposts in Gaza, having disengaged in 2005. Gaza was not “confiscated”. Gaza was taken by Israel defensively as a resut of the ’67 War. Gaza had previously been “confiscated” by Egypt in 1949 through 1967, although, there were no outcries about Egypt occupying Palestinian territory. Disengagement was met with instantaneous rocket fire emanating from Gaza. Israel is negotiating the opening of borders as part of a larger truce, however, constant aggression on the part of Hamas, a terrorist organization, has forced Israel to take extreme measures with regard to border crossings. Hamas, unfortunately, has transformed Gaza into a terrorist base, although, there have been hopes of Hamas initiating steps to transform the territory into a viable state. It should be noted that, for the most part, Egypt has closed its Rafah border with Gaza.

    “These so called “gestures” have not taken place, and have never taken place, right now they are mere words, nothing more. Israel never fully complies with any peace process. ”

    Israel completely disengaged from Gaza in 2005. Another in a mind-numbing series of sweeping statements: Israel never fully complies with any peace process. Israel has enduring peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and peaceful relations with other Arab nations. Israel has a peace treaty with the Palestinians in the West Bank. In 2000, Israel offered the Palestinians 100% of the West Bank and 97% of Gaza along with a $30 BILLION financial package, which, by many accounts, including that of then-President Clinton, was a very strong proposal meriting Palestinian approval. Arafat, instead, rejected Israel’s proposal and started a series of intifada suicide bombings in Israel.

    “Israel and America cannot pick and choose who to negotiate with.”

    Israel is entitled to negotiate with entities that renounce violence and fully accept Israel’s right to exist. Thus far, Hamas has adhered to a genocidal policy toward Israel.

    “Israel must recognise Hamas if you want them to recognise you”

    See above.

    “Any deals you may make with Fatah will get you no where. Fatah does not represent the entire population of Palestine,”

    A major stumblign block in negotiating peace with the Palestinians is the internal war between Hamas and Fatah, with recent outbreaks of violence directed to members of Fatah. It would be unrealistic for Israel to establish a peace treaty with Hamas when Hamas cannot establish peace in its own territory. Currently, the Palestinian territories are in a state of complete chaos politically.

    The Arab states have generally accepted the reality of Israel’s existence. Until Hamas comes into the fold, there will not be peace in the area. The ball is in Hamas’s court.

  26. So when are you going to Join George Bush in his noble and romantic mission in Iraq?

    When did ISRAEL or their U.S. PuppetMasters ever renounce Violence?

    When the U.S. Trained PIGS were torturing a REAL man for throwing shoes at the Coward Bush?

    Still are Torturing him, in fact.

    And they’re making sure the Iraqi Kangaroo Court sentences him to the full 17 years so Dickless Cheney can have a steady supply of Torture Videos to jack off while watching.

    His pacemaker will explode and he’ll die in horrible pain.

    But me saying that is, in your Propaganda, is somehow a Threat.

    Israel never will have a peace treaty and the Palestinians will never have sovereignty over their own land or their own lives, as long as people like YOU give them a free pass to commit whatever murders and tortures they want, without being questioned…

    At least by YOU.

    Four Legs Good, Two Legs Baaaaaaddddd…

  27. Yes they did “Denise/Mitch,” you’ve been taken to the mat.

    Bravo to Jonah for his patience and to BanSidhe of Irish Palestine Solidarity for cutting you to the quick. You’ll have to offer better than blanket dismissals to refute those points.

    Your mantra that Israel is backed by International Law will not make it so. Although probably plenty of criminals are deluded by such a notion.

  28. “Your mantra that Israel is backed by International Law will not make it so. ”

    International law makes it so.

  29. Why do people always say Palestine was just a territory so jew were right in confiscating it? Since when do a people living in an area have to register that land with the jewish authorities or any other authority? It’s the same argument that the English made for stealing land from the American Indian, and the same made by European invaders as they stole land around the world.

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