“That’s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn’t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him.” –One of the testimonies collected by the Rabin pre-military institute, surveying IDF soldiers about war crimes reported to have been committed in Gaza, in the Times Online article Israeli soldiers admit to deliberate killing of Gaza civilians.
Another:
“When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them.”
There were also reports of military rabbis who distributed pamphlets which described the Gaza incursion as part of a greater religious war. Said one IDF soldier:
“All these articles had a clear message: we are the Jewish people, we have come to the land by miraculous means, and now we have to fight to remove the Gentiles who are getting in our way and preventing us from occupying the Holy Land… a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war.”
There was a report on BBC-America about that.
I guess the Israeli soldiers who are coming forward are just “Anti-Semitic” though.
The NY Times has published a follow-up report containing several corrections of errors in earlier reports, including the claim an Israeli sniper killed a mother and her two children. The Times admits that this charge was an “urban myth” based on nothing more than hearsay, and the story also directly quotes Israeli soldiers, including Yishai Goldflam, on the efforts they made to safeguard the lives and property of innocent Palestinian civilians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/world/middleeast/28israel.html?_r=2&hp
That’s not what the NYT article says “Dan.” There are no corrections, only Israel’s official refutation of what its own soldiers felt compelled to confess.
Neither blaming an “urban myth,” nor official PR that the IDF did “all we could do” to avoid civilian casualties, can efface the atrocities, and now the soldiers’ admissions.
All hearsay.
THEIR-SAY, you miserable propagandist. The soldiers’ own words.
The soldiers say they heard about killings. All rumor. Would never hold up in a court of law. Anyway, people are innocent until proven guilty even had something really happened. iSome people are too quick to jump on the IDF. Remember the UN school massacre that supposedly happened? Never even happened. Then the Jenin massacre years ago? Never happened. The IDF is not perfect, as no army is. But, they are very careful to avoid civiian casualties.
So, “Dan”, the IDF isn’t going to follow up with any investigation?
My my what a surprise.
Kosher Hogwash from a Circumcised Hog.
The surest way to “do all you can to avoid civilian deaths” is to not point your firepower in the general direction of Civilians.
Or anybody else for that matter.
Tell, do tell, since the predictable response is that the Gaza chapter of Hamas was “hiding behind civilians”, what does that make the Resistance against the British Mandate?
Did those brave young idealistic israeli “soldiers” wear uniforms, display insignia, that sort of thing? No?
Trinity Broadcasting Networks keeps publishing a show about the Miraculous interventions on behalf of the proto-Israel resistance…
One was that while a small unit of the “commandoes” were on their way to deliver weapons for a bombing raid.. after curfew, they were almost certain to be caught… but the “miracle’ was that a fellow Jew was trying to get home before the curfew and the British shot him by mistake.
Some miracle. I’ll type this slowly because you might not be able to read very fast… They Hid Behind Jewish Civilians.
They launched their operations from private homes, from schools and from synagogues and shops.
Everything IDF makes sure to accuse the Gaza Hamas of doing.
The IDF is extraordinarily well trained in the rules of engagement and the IDF is far more disciplined than probably any other army in the world. The IDF is well aware they are always under a microscope, and, so, there is absolutely no advantage to violating the law, only downside. Might there be individual rogues? Might there have been violations? It’s plausible since this is the case with every army and every military engagement. It would be the rare exception rather than the rule.
The surest way to “do all you can to avoid civilian deaths” is to not point your firepower in the general direction of Civilians.
This is a basic tenet of war and the IDF is well trained in what constitutes correct fighting. Hamas uses civilians as shields as well as using civilian buildings as military bases, which increases the chances of civilian casualties. Hamas do not fight in uniform, making it difficult to distinguish between militant and civilian. All of these factors represent violations of international law and rules of war. I don’t think there is another army–the IDF–in the world fighting in such added adversity. Still, the IDF took great pains in Gaza to minimize civilian casualties and, in the end, a significant number of casualties were militants. Had the IDF wanted to, they could have carpet-bombed Gaza like other armies have done in other situations, however, this was not the approach in Gaza, placing the IDF in harm’s way.
No evidence to support allegations of any wrongdoing. The IDF investigation concluded the allegations were based on rumor and has closed their investigation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/30/AR2009033001240.html
The Israeli Internet Megabone sez…
‘The IDF is extraordinarily well trained in the rules of engagement and the IDF is far more disciplined than probably any other army in the world. The IDF is well aware they are always under a microscope, and, so, there is absolutely no advantage to violating the law, only downside.’
Pure unadulterated Israeli BULLSHIT! The Israeli military is protected by the US government and violates international law all the time, same as the US military itself. They are protected when they do this so there is no ‘downside’ other than what this paid stooge ‘Dan’ having to be so much more unconvincing in his lies.
Pure unadulterated Israeli BULLSHIT! The Israeli military is protected by the US government and violates international law all the time, same as the US military itself. They are protected when they do this so there is no ‘downside’ other than what this paid stooge ‘Dan’ having to be so much more unconvincing in his lies.
What international laws has Israel violated? None I’m aware of but I may be missing something. The IDF has investigated the claims of deliberate killings of non-combatants and the investigation determined they never happened and were based on rumors. It is just possible nothing happened and that is the conclusion the IDF has come to. Israel is an open society with a very aggressive media and numerous human rights organizations, and if actual killings have taken place, then they will be documented. I don’t believe senior members of the IDF would risk their careers and their reputations, and their personal freedom, by lying and covering up crimes. Haditha was also alleged to have been the scene of a massacre by US troops, and a US congressman even joined in the accusations, but in the end, all soldiers were exonerated. Soldiers deserve the presumption of innocence like everyone else and the IDF is no different.
See, Dan, I’ve got experience in a lot of things.
And friends and family who have even more experiences.
Have you ever been to the Middle East, ever seen a flock of sheep?
That’s a set-up.
See, a couple of Air Force sergeants told me this cute little story about how their wing was stationed TDY in Turkey, patrolling the Northern No-fly zone.
One of their pilots shot up a flock of sheep, mistaking them for “unlawful combatants”.
That was back when they were using Hell-fire missiles on the F-16s, and a motorized Gatling gun called a Vulcan, which puts out 7200 rounds per minute, in case you can’t do math very quickly that 120 rounds per second.
The Sergeants, normally level headed and even nice people, were laughing and joking about the incident, “The pilot was feeling rather SHEEPISH because he was having a Baaaaaddddd Day.”.
Purely anecdotal, yes? Only, it happened. One of the sergeants is my Sister.
The Pentagon, like the IDF, claims that they never ever did anything like that.
They even claimed that there were absolutely NO incidents of the U.S. Air Force firing on ground targets unless those ground targets were taking hostile action against them, “self-defense” in other words.
That’s the Pentagon Story and they’re sticking to it.
Now, back to “have you ever actually seen a flock of sheep”, let me add on a qualifier… did you ever see a flock of domestic sheep without a Human Being acting as their shepherd?
The Air Force also boasts that nobody on the ground could possibly survive such an attack, they’re very aggressively and arrogantly proud of their ability to commit Murder From Above.
My sister and her husband, the other sergeant, did just like you do, Dan, they accepted the Pilot’s word that no human being died in the attack.
Except… this is the SAME pilot who told them that he fired on the sheep because he couldn’t tell the difference between people and sheep to begin with.
Now, since IDF is a willing puppet of the American Military, I plumb reckon that they do the same thing to whistleblowers that the American Military does.
They try to discredit their statements just like you’re attempting
AND….
They bring terroristic actions against the soldiers who tell the truth in spite of what the Official Story is.
Another thing, before I go do something else, Dan…
Do you realize the implications of the fact that the murder of the Shepherd, along with his family’s entire means of making a living, happened in the Northern No-Fly Zone…
Means he was a Kurd.
If you had been to the Middle East ever or even talk to Arabs (aside from screaming orders at them and shooting them if they don’t immediately grovel to you) you would realize something about the cultural divide.
The shepherd lost his life, his family lost their provider, their protector and everything they owned.
Plus, the Kurds were one group the Air Force spends so much time proclaiming that they’re “protecting” them, instead of, you know, Murdering Them and then making jokes about it afterward.
And neither the Arabs, such as the Ba’ath party, nor the ethnic Persians from the Shia sects,
Would go into Kurdistan without a big-ass army.
Kind of like the IDF when they went into Gaza.
They would have the same reason for invading Kurdistan as well.
To subjugate the “savages” and “uncircumcised heathen” and other racist terms meaning UnterMenschen, and KILL any “sub-humans” who resist.
The same reason the American Army is in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Kurds know how the Arabs and Persians feel about them, and they’ll cheerfully return the favor.
That’s why the Ba’ath Party didn’t have anybody there when the U.S. Air Force blew the sheep AND THE SHEPHERD into the next world.
The Air Force and the Pentagon deny it of course.
Just like the IDF.
…and other terrorist organizations…
“the IDF has investigated” right…
The Pigs investigating their Fellow Murdering PIGS.
Just like Cops everywhere.
Did you know the WaffenSchutzStaffel and The Gestapo investigated all allegations against the Nazi Soldiers occupying France and Holland and Poland and Greece?
And, surprise surprise surprise, the Gestapo found that all the allegations were false, that the Nazi soldiers hadn’t committed any crimes.
And, yes, I’m comparing you to the Nazis.
Too bad if you don’t like it.
You are predisposed to hating Israel and by extension anything associated with Israel such as the IDF and even the US Pentagon etc. etc etc. I get it. I’m predisposed to giving the benefit of the doubt when it’s warranted. I know the details of the exhaustive training and preparation the IDF puts their soldiers through. They do this in order to prevent abuses. There will be failures as in every army and every war. If it’s found that the IDF committed crimes, they’ll be accountable. Until such facts surface, not rumors, I’m not going to condemn anyone.
‘I know the details of the exhaustive training and preparation the IDF puts their soldiers through.’
I bet you do, since you have been though them yourself. You’re so stupid to just be as blatant as you are, IDF stooge.
I live in New York and am not an Israeli citizen, so, my opportunities to become a member of the IDF are highly remote.
You’re so stupid to just be as blatant as you are, IDF stooge
Just as an aside, if you were more respectful to your guests, you might cultivate more posters and more readers. Unless, of course, you are only seeking those who are anti-Israeli in their point of view. In which case you would be very parochial in your thinking.
The Pigs investigating their Fellow Murdering PIGS
Israel is an open society with checks and balances and systems in place to provide a counterbalance to IDF internal investigations. There is no conspiracy among the media, the various political groups and human rights groups, the lawyers, the anti-war groups who look at the IDF under a microscope to protect the IDF. It might just be that there is no substance to the allegations of “wanton” murders of Pals by the IDF.
Said Dan: “What international laws has Israel violated? None I’m aware of”
Gaining land through conquest, keeping it, fully illegal. Using collective punishment, illegal; disproportionate force, illegal; free-fire zones, illegal; extra-judicial assassination, illegal; etc, etc.
But Dan doesn’t show much grip on international law:
Said Dan: “Had the IDF wanted to, they could have carpet-bombed Gaza”
Gaining land through conquest, keeping it, fully illegal. Using collective punishment, illegal; disproportionate force, illegal; free-fire zones, illegal; extra-judicial assassination, illegal; etc, etc.
Gaining land, and keeping it, through conquest is legal when done so defensively, such as in the 1967 War when Israel was provoked by the Arab nations and captured Gaza and the West Bank. Justice Stephen Schwebel, former president of the International Court of Justice and a jformer judge on the ICJ, supports this view.
Collective punishment provisions under the Geneva Conventions do not apply to Gaza vis-a-vis Israel as Gaza is at war with Israel and because Hamas is not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. The US blockade of Cuba is not considered collective punishment under the GC either. Article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention only requires Israel to permit passage of food, clothing, and medicines intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers, and maternity cases, which Israel is in compliance with. Israel would be under no obligation to provide anything itself, just not to interfere with such shipments sent by others.
As for the use of disproportionate force, this is a widely misunderstood concept. It does not mean that, in the case of the recent Gaza war, the IDF must match Hamas in terms of military force utilized. It means that the IDF had to use the amount of military force necessary to achieve their objectives.
As for extra-judicial assassinations, such actions are perfectly legal under international law. While a civilian is protected from military targeting, once that civilian takes up arms or functions as a militant, or terorrist, he or she loses that protection and becomes a legitimate target. The Israeli High Court has outlined very strict guidelines that the IDF must follow, in concert with legal counsel, to justify beforehand each targeted assassination.
But Dan doesn’t show much grip on international law
I’m always eager to expand my knowledge of int’l law. Hopefully, I’ve done the same for you.
What, I maybe have “meshuginah” tattooed on my forehead?
That I’m stupid and you could sell me anything?
The IDF is just like any group of Coqjuering Thugs.
Might makes right.
We get a lot of the Propaganda that we owe it to God to support the War, in Israel and Gaza and Iraq and Afghanistan.
That Israel is negotiating for peace in Good Faith, and that every Israeli dreams of a time when they don’t have to funnel their sons into the Killing Machine when they turn 18.
Bullshit.
Tel Aviv gets it’s majority funding from the DeathMongers in the Pentagon.
Your whole country is being turned from a religious dream into just another Puppet Vassal State.
Negetiations at Gun-point are NOT “good faith”, the only negotiating point you have is the same one the Oil Industry and Munitions Industry who are using your nation as a pawn use repeatedly
“Do things Our Way, or we’ll send our Imperial Storm Troopers into your nations and communities and Kill Your People”
That’s the same “negotiations” Hitler used.
The soldiers who are recanting their former testimony, you think maybe the IDF, who has a vital financial interest in such stories NOT being believed, wouldn’t apply pressure on them to recant?
Dude, I was in the military, I know how the Pigs who run the Armies of the world, including ours and including yours, behave and think.
They routinely cover up their Murders and coerce the soldiers who participated or witnessed the crimes to testify that it is always as their Masters say it was.
But there are close to two thousand dead men women and CHILDREN who your BabyKilling Puppet Army murdered in Gaza, the vast majority of them killed without any guns in their hands.
But you come to us with this theory that they were all Terrorists.
How about it, Gonif Dan, were you one of those soldiers, “Brave Honorable Warriors” Murdering Babies?
Their slain bodies and shed blood scream from the ground, just like Abel’s blood cried out from the ground, long and loud, that your Army Murders Civilians.
Make all the weasel-word excuses you want, you’re every bit as guilty of the blood of these dead CIVILIANS as the Coward Thugs who pulled the triggers on them.
Because You Are Here Supporting The Murderers.
You are their accomplice.
And apparently you’re PROUD to be a murderer and a Liar.
Your IDF says they didn’t murder or deliberately target Civilians, there are 2,000 Dead Civilians who say otherwise.
Who are we to believe, a gonif like you and your Lying Masters, or the silent witness of the dead?
“The soldiers who are recanting their former testimony, you think maybe the IDF, who has a vital financial interest in such stories NOT being believed, wouldn’t apply pressure on them to recant?”
It wasn’t testimony in the legal sense, the soldiers who talked about the alleged wanton killings were not under oath, they were merely speaking among their peers. I was not there, I don’t know what did or did not happen. Frankly, I wish the IDF did not need to engage in military operations as wild accusations of “genocide” and “war crimes” and “atrocities” get hurled around each time, never at Israel’s enemies, only at Israel. I’m not one for conspiracies, and, so, I don’t believe in any widespread, concerted coverup. There are too many outside forces to uncover those coverups. It would be easier for the IDF to court-martial any rogue elements rather than engaging in something that would end up being far more scandalous. So, until someone finds wrongdoing, I accord the IDF the same presumption of innocence as I would anyone else.
“Dude, I was in the military, I know how the Pigs who run the Armies of the world, including ours and including yours, behave and think.”
Then, you ought to appreciate better than most the added complications faced by the IDF in fighting an enemy who follows no rules of war and has no code of ethics, who do not fight in uniform, who routinely engage in human-shielding, who use civilian buildings as military bases, who booby-trap buildings, who steal humanitarian aid and who deliberately fire at non-combatants.
“But there are close to two thousand dead men women and CHILDREN who your BabyKilling Puppet Army murdered in Gaza, the vast majority of them killed without any guns in their hands.”
A very significant number of whom were militants. Hamas shooting from mosques and schools and hospitals and homes only serves to maximize non-combatant casualties, which is on Hamas’s shoulders. The IDF is the only army I know of who called every Palestinian residence with alerts of the impending incursion, supplemented by dropping leaflets. If the IDF truly wished to “murder” Palestinians, it would be counterproductive to alert them to their military activities. If the IDF truly wanted to “murder” innocents, the IDF would not have stopped combat unilaterally each day to allow for the administration of humanitarian aid. And, had Israel wanted to murder Palestinians, Israel would not have opened their hospitals to wounded Palestinians. The IDF also used new ammunition that minimizes physical damage in instances of human-shielding. Israel took great precautions to minimize casualties.
Israeli Internet Megaphone propaganda guy, can you you at least do us the courtesy of not stringing your comments online here. The last 3 posts on this thread were ALL you! Who are you talking to? Yourself?
You say you live in New York and this bullshit about ‘yourself’ is just more of the Israeli internet propaganda technique which is to pretend not to be a coordinated State effort, but rather just individual concerned citizens posting their concerns about supposed blog injustice to their noble cause (Israel) and blah, blah, blah. It’s always full of lectures, too, to us to be courteous, kind, and so on. To this, one can only respond …
GO FUCK YOURSELF!
To Dan:
You asked earlier what International Laws Israel is breaking, and commented that you may be missing something.
– Israel is in violation of Article 1 and 2 of the Charter of the United Nations: This is done by ignoring Resolution 242 which specifically states that Israel was to withdraw all forces from territories seized and occupied during the Six Day War in 1967. These territories included The Gaza Strip and The West Bank (among others) which still today are occupied by the State of Israel. Israel does not recognize any sort of Palestinian governance, which is against Article 1 of the UN Charter. This states that all members of the UN need to promote equal rights and self-determination of people, which Israel is certainly not doing.
The following quote comes from the 207th plenary meeting of the UN General Assembly, 11th of May 1949:
This, from 1949!
This is just what I have dug up in a few minutes. I’m sure one would not have to dig too deep to begin exploring which articles of the Fourth Geneva convention have been broken.