Listening to Islamic studies scholar Robert Shedinger taunt the CC audience with whether Jesus may have been a Muslim reminds me of the not-so-old joke about returning the Statue of Liberty to the French, because we’re not using her anymore. At his fundamental, Jesus espoused what we are accustomed to consider were basic Christian Values, but who are American Christians to lay claim to those anymore?
Islam, on the other hand, is a religion to suit the poor and oppressed, traditionally Jesus’ favorites. Unless we’re talking Embed Jesus.
Shedinger urged “constructive dialog” between Muslims and Christians, that each might learn of our common ideals. But his lesson would seem to be entirely for the Christians. All religions share the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, although one might doubt Americans have given that much thought for awhile.
While many would argue that American religious hypocrisy has been growing fetid over the course of a centuries of imperialist invasions and wars, the Fundamentalist Christian/Moral Majority “WWJD” has taken a turn since 9/11 to mean bomb, maim and torture. Has the American Jesus become Un-Christian, or is this the New World Order Christianity?
In spite of what may be pious America’s best intentions, Capitalism has relegated its moral cover to doublespeak and subterfuge, American churchgoers to dupes, and US missionaries to unwitting cohorts to the deprivations of our businessmen, soldiers and loan officers.
The War on Islam isn’t being waged by Christianity Proper, but by the systemic greed of Western Capitalism, secular and godless, unless you count money to be divine. Capitalism may have Xmas, but it has no claim on Jesus.
The WTC being America’s Mecca, Holy of Holies and English America the New Jerusalem.
The moneychangers built their own temple and left a “No Jesus Allowed” sign on the front gate.
Islam, not Christianity, divides the world into dar-al-Islam (house of Islam) and dar-al-harb (house of war.) Mohammed, unlike Jesus, repeatedly invaded his neighbors, beheading any man who refused to acknowledge him as the messiah, and enslaving the women and children. Mohammed, unlike Jesus, owned and sold slaves. Mohammed, unlike Jesus, married a six-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine. Mohammed, unlike Jesus, beat his wife Aisha and recommended the practice to other men. Mohammed said,”I will not ask a man why he beats his wife.” Mohammed, unlike Jesus, ordered the murder of his critics, whether those critics be an aged servant woman who mumbled under her breath, or a poet in a distant land. Mohammed, unlike Jesus, suppressed truth by defining slander as “saying something about a Muslim that he would not want to hear.”
‘Truthseeker’… you are not. Here is from your precious Torah/ Bible if we go looking some for Christian and Jewish hatefulness and lust for the killing of others…
Exodus 12:29— And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
‘Truthseeker’, go and write your bigoted antiMuslim filth elsewhere, Buddy. We intensely dislike the stench you give off.
(Here also is the Torah/ Bible telling people to stone others to death… Leviticus 20:27— A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Tony Logan, the truth is greater than brain-dead political correctness.
The Old Testament does indeed reflect the superstitions, misogyny and brutality of its time. But the New Testament overturns the old “eye for an eye” brutalities. You will not find a word of misogyny or cruelty or war-mongering in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. (Though you’ll find plenty of Christians who fail to live up to their teachings.)
In contrast, Mohammed wrote “peace-loving” “tolerant” verses only during the period when his religion was young and unpopular and in need of tolerance. As soon as he had the might to do so, he began invading his neighbors and “converting” them by the sword. Propaganda agencies like CAIR won’t tell you about the Islamic principle of “abrogation,” whereby their prophet’s earlier teachings (such as peace and tolerance) are “abrogated” or over-ruled by his later teachings (war and dominance) which contradict them. But abrogation is what all the major Islamic universities teach.
You also appear to be ignorant of the Islamic doctrine of “sirk,” which makes it a form of blasphemy to outlaw anything that Mohammed allowed. You quote ancient Biblical texts allowing the stoning of wizards. But you fail to note that Western cultures have evolved beyond such ignorant and primitive practices. In Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, where the Islamic doctrine of “sirk” binds them forever to the norms of the seventh century, “wizards” are still being prosecuted and executed. Yemen won’t set a minimum age for marriage because of “sirk;” setting a minimum age would be an implied criticism of the prophet. Even supposedly moderate Tunisia refuses to enact laws outlawing slavery! To the West, Tunisians claim that such a law is unnecessary, but it is obvious that such a law would be an implied criticism of their slave-taking prophet.
If you truly hate bigotry, as you claim, then you must hate bigoted anti-infidel filth as much as you hate “bigoted anti-Muslim filth.” You must hate the many Islamic verses that call infidels the descendants of apes and pigs, that urge the destruction of the Jews and instruct believers to “strike terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.” You must hate the system of oppressive Jim Crow laws known as “dhimmitude” which made infidels second class citizens in Muslim countries. You must hate the Islamic teachings that women are intellectually and morally inferior to men, that their testimony is worth half that of a man, that they may be beaten for purely subjective reasons. You hate those things, right?
It is bigotry and violence themselves that give off “a stench,” as you put it. Accurate reporting is the cure, not the disease.
Well, you are right that Islam was a religion of Imperialism when it spread the Arab World outwards. The fact that that is so merely underlines how disgusting it is to hear your own defenses of todays religion of Imperialism, which is Christianity and not Islam. That Christianity has been THE religion of Imperialism has been the case for quite more than just this century, too, but for many centuries previous as well. No amount of verbal babble about the New Testament by you can change that reality either, ‘Truthseeker’.
‘ Accurate reporting is the cure, not the disease.’
True.
‘But you fail to note that Western cultures have evolved beyond such ignorant and primitive practices.’
But that is not true at all what you said here. In fact, it is a direct lie! The occupation of other peoples’ lands and the murder and torture of those peoples wholesale is something that the ‘Western cultures’ continue to support whole heartedly, using the Christian religion itself as the foundation of the mayhem they deliver onto others. You have been deceiving yourself, “Truthseeker’.
Your reply is full of sophistry and evasion, Tony Logan.
I explicitly stated that Christians fail to live up to their ideals. Certainly we must learn of all the evils – imperialism, slavery, etc. that have been done by Christians over the centuries. But we must not whitewash similar crimes done by others. My point was that there is nothing in the Christian gospels themselves to justify or excuse evil behavior. Churches are earthly power structures and , as such, are corruptible. But western free speech enables us to criticize corruption and to attempt to correct it, while Islam is opposed to freedom of speech and imagines itself above all reason and analysis.
Under Islam, unlike Christianity, many gross injustices (islamic imperialism, enslavement, violent misogyny, oppression of infidels) are not only explicitly endorsed, but even imposed as a sacred duty. Any attempt to criticize or correct such practices is “blasphemy” punishable by death. This is why western churches have gone through various reformations to root out corruptions, but in Islam only one great “reformation” has been possible – the Saudi Wahabbi movement which reverted more perfectly to brutal seventh century values. (like punishing the crime of being born female with a lifetime of house arrest.) Any other reformations would have been quashed as blasphemous.
I am agnostic myself. But any rational mind must admit that having just a handful of broad principles to guide you (like the actual words of Christ, or the U,S. Constitution) is a better system for centuries of use than an elaborate system like Islam which attempts to preserve in great detail the social norms of the seventh century. And any rational mind must admit that free speech, anathema to Islam, is absolutely essential to the process of creating a more just world.
Because the politically correct argument is false, you have to resort to distorting my words. Clearly, I was referring to the execution of “sorcerers,” when I wrote of the West evolving beyond “such primitive practices.” I never said or implied that the west is without fault;, my argument is that western free speech gives us the tools to eventually correct our faults, while Islamic blasphemy laws, coupled with western political correctness, prevent Islam from rooting out its own corruptions. The sorcery issue, brought up by you, is a good example. Even during the infamous Salem witch trials of the 1600’s, other American communities were vehemently condemning the goings-on in Salem. No one accused them of “anti-Salem bigotry” for exposing the faulty evidence or the possible property-grab motivation behind the trials! In Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, which hates free speech, people are being prosecuted for sorcery to this day.
i think that is you, Tony, who have been deceiving yourself. I don’t blame you; you know what you have been taught. CAIR and Saudi money have been pouring into U.S. schools and universities trying by stealth to impose Islamic blasphemy laws on American citizens. But ask yourself this – what if there emerged a new religion, the Religion of Capitalist Republicans? What if our universities and media outlets decided that all criticism of the RCR was a form of bigotry and must be avoided? Other religions, of course, could be mocked and defamed at will. What if they decided that it was “hateful” and loathsome to try to link crimes committed by RCR members to their religious books, even when those religious books specifically endorsed such crimes? What if they decided that all good people must studiously ignore the fact that republican criminals themselves cited their religious verses as justifications for their crimes? Do you think that such policies would encourage the RCR to be a just and virtuous organization? Or do you think that such policies would ensure that the RCR, unfairly shielded from all criticism and rational thought, would become ever more corrupt and abusive? The same thing goes for Islam.
‘My point was that there is nothing in the Christian gospels themselves to justify or excuse evil behavior. ‘
Sorry, your statement is just pure unadulterated baloney, ‘Truthseeker’. The Old Testament is simply the most solid and corrupt foundation of Christianity, whether you like it or not?, and remains completely part of Christian and Jewish doctrine today. Your Christian-made hatred of the others is found in your silly effort to accuse me of being Muslim and Saudi brainwashed. What moronic-ly RACIST behavior you exhibit with this crap!
‘I don’t blame you; you know what you have been taught. CAIR and Saudi money have been pouring into U.S. schools and universities trying by stealth to impose Islamic blasphemy laws on American citizens.’
Egads**** such stupidity. And look at this bull, too!
‘I am agnostic myself. But any rational mind must admit that having just a handful of broad principles to guide you (like the actual words of Christ, or the U,S. Constitution) is a better system for centuries of use than an elaborate system like Islam which attempts to preserve in great detail the social norms of the seventh century.’
Good grief, once again. So you are a member of Atheists for Christ, I suppose? And if Islam rose up in the 7th century, Christianity well predates that with its rise. No amount of psycho babble by an Atheist for Christ and Also For the US Constitution of the 18th century US slaveocracy can really sluff their racism by us just like that, ‘Seeker’. Get real.
As to the Saud theocracy? Well is that not both the US and Israel’s principle ally in the Middle East? Of course it is. The three big religions are united in their support for torture, murder, and dictatorship, are they not? You being all secular and what not surely can see that, can’t you? Or, do you let your blatant imperialist loving hatred of Arabs blind you on these matters?
I know such people exist, but I do not personally know a single American Christian who takes the Old Testament as literal truth.
I don’t know a single American Christian who wishes to legalize polygamy or incest or stonings, just because instances of such practices are described in the Old Testament. I don’t know a single American Christian who believes parents should be allowed to kill their children just because Isaac (or whoever it was) was willing to sacrifice his son. Do you know any such people?
There are millions of Muslims, on the other hand, who believe in killing anyone who leaves their religion, killing anyone who criticizes their religion, killing any Muslim woman who marries a non-Muslim man, and stoning to death any unmarried pregnant woman who cannot produce four male Muslim witnesses willing to testify that she was raped. Just because their ancient book tells them to.
See the difference? You say that Christianity predates Islam and you are right. But you completely ignore the fact that the words of Jesus – and there aren’t many of them – are radically opposed to the barbaric “morality” of his day, as well as to much of the Old Testament. Jesus does not trap us all in the first century a.d. Mohammed does trap his followers in the seventh.
You doubt that I am agnostic? What does being agnostic have to do with opposing moral relativism? Does being agnostic mean blinding oneself to the faults of all non-western cultures? No. Only the religion of political correctness requires such stupidities.
You say that the “three big religions are united in their support for torture, murder, and dictatorship.” I will certainly agree that the followers of all three religions have done so. Some of the worst crimes they have committed have been done in the names of their respective religions. All I am saying is that Christianity, aided by western principles of free speech, has proven itself more capable of reform.
You say that “psycho babble … for the US constitution of the 18th century US slaveocracy ” can’t “sluff their racism by us just like that.” Whatever that means. But who is it, exactly, who is trying to “sluff off” or to deny the racism or the slavery that was practiced in the US? Have I denied it? Have your teachers denied it? On the contrary, our western traditions of free speech and self-criticism have allowed us to admit out faults, and to amend our flawed Constitution. -or hadn’t you noticed?- And we have spent billions of dollars trying to correct the effects of racism in this country.
Islam, on the other hand, is incapable of reform because it is incapable of admitting any fault. Just look at Turkey, which refuses to this day to admit to the Armenian genocide. What’s more, they try to punish other countries which dare to teach this unsavory aspect of Turkish history. Lie and conceal and threaten, but never admit you’re wrong. That’s their motto.
Since you brought up American slavery, let’s compare slavery in America with slavery in Islam. Shall we? The number of slaves sold in the Atlantic slave trade is roughly equivalent to the number of slaves sold to Islamic states during their long history of slaving. (But remember America was only a small part of the Atlantic slave trade. South and Central America bought the bulk of those slaves.) While slaves brought to America were mostly male, the slaves sold in Islamic countries were mostly female. (Male slaves were often castrated in order to serve as harem guards.) There is no doubt that female slaves were sexually abused in both America and Islam, but only in America were people free to condemn the practice of abusing female slaves. In Islam, the prophet gave specific permission for the rape of female slaves, so that practice could not be criticized. Nor could the practice of slavery itself, since the prophet was himself a slaver. Where free speech is absent, reform is impossible. So it is no surprise that England and America, not Islam, were the ones to finally outlaw slavery. Islamic countries did not begin to “abolish” slavery until the 1950’s and 60’s, and even then the west pressured them into it. And Islamic “abolishment” was a bit different from ours. In most Islamic countries there are still no criminal penalties for slave holding. (that would be blasphemous.) Instead, they “abolished” by simply shutting down the slave markets – an issue of commercial regulation, not of human rights.
Speaking of racism, do you know that “abd,” the Arabic word for slave, (as in the name abdullah which means slave of allah) is also their word for “black?” do you know that there was one reform movement within Islam to improve the slave trade? It did not abolish slavery by any means, but it did discourage Muslims from enslaving other Muslims. So what was the result? Muslim slave traders stopped the conversion of Africans to Islam. Without this “reform” all of Africa would have become Muslim long ago..
Incidentally, do you ever wonder what happened to the millions of babies of the African sex slaves sold in Islamic countries? Where are they now? We can see the descendants of Africans enslaved to Americans. They are right here, and, although still oppressed, they’re certianly doing better than the descendants of unenslaved Africans back in Africa. But where are all the African Saudis and Yemenis and Kuwaitis? Did those black slave babies get their heads bashed in? Were they sent back to Africa? Did they convert to Islam and eventually intermarry with the Arabs? I would really like to know. Here in America we have a TV show where people discover their roots and trace their ancestry. Blacks discover they have white ancestors, for instance. Wouldn’t that be a great idea in Saudi Arabia? We could discover genetically if Arab Saudis did indeed intermarry so extensively with their former African slaves that you can’t tell today who is part African and who is not.. If that were proven true, then the Saudis could honestly boast that they are less racist than Americans. – (instead of dishonestly concealing their own long history of slave-trading while pointing a hypocritical finger at America.) But somehow i doubt that any such tests will ever be given.
You say that “psycho babble …
‘Truthseeker’, you simply posit that there is supposedly now a monolithically reactionary Islam that you see at war with a more or less now progressive Christianity and Jewish alliance in the world. I call that unabashed apologetics for your home based US capitalist world imperialism. Your talk that Blacks in the US are doing all hunky dory while you babble on about how you cry for ‘African sex slaves sold in Islamic countries’ is too richly stupid for words. Why don’t you instead talk about sex slaves trafficked from Central America to Tijuana for dumb ass US CHRISTIAN military types in Southern California to perhaps fuck over there on Revolution Avenue in the whorehouse cantinas they patronize? That is if these poor sex slave women don’t get murdered on their way North into Ciudad Juarez or Chihuahua City. See? I can be just as stupidly sensationalistic as yourself! However, I bow down to your talent is that department of bullshit.
OK, ‘truthseeker’, you will now have the last word for a couple of days with this idiotic crusade of yours to slander Muslims, seeing that I myself will be out of town and away from the computer for the next few days. All I gotta say to you is YAWN!!!!!!