Vets have to battle nasty US medical system like the rest of us

The bad conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center has brought many US soldiers from killing Iraqis into a new battle with their own US government. Now they and their families are not waving US flags so much as they discover what many of the elderly and sick amongst us already knew. The US government doesn’t give much a damn about Afghans, Iraqis, nor the majority of US citizens either.

Did the youngsters signing up for the US killing machine think they would get something special? Some sort of privileged status for themselves for being hired killers for Dubya, Cheney, or whomever might come along whenever as their top officers?

The whole military medical system has big nasty holes in it much as does the civilian medical system does, too. When you sign up and go abroad to fight people you haven’t a clue about you might want to think you are a big hero/ heroine, but you are not. You are somebody looking to get special treatment, that’s all. You want that spiffy uniform, the perks, the respect by the people in power and their suck ass supporters at the lower economic levels. But once you get hurt all that fades into the background. Now you become much more like the rest of us, and the rest of us have to deal with sorry, don’t give a damn, medical care. So tell any younger sisters and brothers, to deal with the real problems back home, before getting all psyched up to supposedly go solve the world’s problmes by high tech killing. Didn’t make any sense to begin with, but you let yourself get suckered, didn’ you?And now the chickens perhaps have come home to roost, right on top of your own lonesome shoulders?

When somebody tells you to jump off a cliff by joining up as hired killer, you don’t have to go along smirking and thinking how smart you are. Yes, many vets that previously played the fool have to eventually battle the nasty US for-private-don’t-give-a-damn- except-about profits medical system like the rest of us. You’ll not get quality care like the top dogs are sure to give themselves.

It was a dummy thing you did joining up, and we wish you now the best, just like we wish all of us the best in getting the decent medical care that is our human right…. one that our rulers ignore all the time. How many of the wounded vets wish they could frag the same people they signed up to blindly follow? After all, they fragged you did they not? If not yet, then you are one of the more fortunate. Thank your lucky stars up to now. Because the nasty sorry ass US medical system is more likely to kill you in the long run, far more likely than any ol’ Osama. That’s whether you or vet, or not? What you heroes going to do about it? When you fight back (if you do?), at least you’ll be on the right side this time.

22 thoughts on “Vets have to battle nasty US medical system like the rest of us

  1. AvatarThe 13th

    Whew! For a second there, I thought this Topic was going to be about the plight of Veteranarians…

    And from an evolutionist point of view… IT IS.

    …Such Inhumanity…

    I don’t think that most soldiers were dummies for joining. Just(ice) tempted by the false advertising’s heat. Ever bought something by Male-Order before, Tony?

  2. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    Just on Ebay. I was kicked out of the Male Order when I was dishonorably discharged from high school ROTC. But I was a draftee.

  3. AvatarMichael Slivka

    Here you have a taste of what government-run, “single-payer” socialized medicine would look like. No one has a “right” to medical care, any more than anyone has a right to the products of the labor of any other person. To speak otherwise is to be in favor of slavery.

    If you want a look at how the Canadian and British systems work (or fail to work), just go to the following link:

    http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/070214-williams-medicine.php

    And if the Cuban system were that great, they might have been able to treat a simple case of diverticulitis before it got so out of hand in Fidelito.

  4. Avatartony logan

    Missed you, Mike. I was worried that you might have gone bankrupt.

    And for your info (and Glen Beck’s, too). diverticulitis is not a ‘simple case’ disease and people die all the time from it in the US and elseware, too. Castro made the wise decision not to have a colostomy, which would most certainly have been what he would have gotten inside our nasty, for private profit medical system.

    People who do go that way often times die from the depression of having a permanent ‘shit bag’ (coloquial term)hanging from them, so Castro’s decision made all the sense in the world to me and most any knowlegable folk anywhere. But as a US shyster you might not have fully thought out much of the angles of his medical problem and tx at all, so don’t try to pose as some sort of expert here, please.

    As to Canadian and the British systems of medical care, none of them have loads of health workers themselves and their families all left uncovered and unable to access basic medical care like we do in the US. It is clear that you have not a clue what you are talking about on this issue so I would just leave it alone if I were you. Right Wing Dittohead ideology ala Glen Beck and clones is no substitute for real acquaintance with US reality on this issue.

  5. AvatarMichael Slivka

    And I missed you also, Tony! It always warms the cockles of my heart to argue with “progressives”: if you have no argument, you can always launch a personal attack. And no, I haven’t filed my own bankruptcy yet…..I’d rather run up the unsecured debt to at least a few million before I have it discharged.

    But with your constant attacks on both the Democrats and Republicans, how could you seriously argue that any politician could effectively run a system of national health care? Remember who gets elected to public office: the same former jocks and cheerleaders who were on the student council in high school. Are these the folks you want deciding if and when you can get your heart surgery? I have a friend, whose sister lives in Canada. She has been on the “waiting list” for the past 10 months for a bone marrow transplant, only to just find out they they had “lost” her paperwork, and now she has to start all over. Trouble is, she is now 54, and the system says that once she reaches 55, she will no longer qualify for the procedure. Oh well, I guess that’s one way to keep costs manageable.

    Viva la revolucion!

  6. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    What makes you think that it is Tony Blair or some other British parlimentarian that decides if you get heart surgery in the United Kingdom, Michael? Even allowing for a certain amount of excessive hyperbole in your argumentation here, your whole argument against a single payer universal health care system is entirely idiotic. At least doctors make the medical decisions elsewhere, and not insurance agents like in the US.

    And why do you nutty Right Wingers always go hunting for horror stories abroad? It’s like you act as if there are not much worse stories of medical system dysfunction at home? I could give you much worse stories about our American fuck up system within my own family experiences even. It’s like hyou nice Right Wing twits are not even living in the same country/ planet/ universe as the rest of us, Michael.

    Also, you talk about delays in care in Canada, when I just got through mentioning that there is no medical coverage at all for millions of health care workers and their families inthe US. Did that info stated just go whistling through your 2 ears without any contact with your brain? You talk about a 10 month delay, where as I am talking about a complete inability to get care at all over any length of time in the US, even by health care workers taking care of patients on their own jobs! Do you somehow think I am making this shit up, Dude? No coverage is no coverage, and that’s a muich bigger delay than what you are talking about. Get it?

  7. EricEric

    Michael, I’m glad you’ve come out and said it. No one has a right to medical care. No one has the right to anyone else’s labor. You define Libertarian short-sightedness.

    Man is differentiated from animal because we bury our dead. Not because we make tools it turns out, but because we look after our weak and infirm. The history of mankind has been about our aspiration to transcend the bestial aspects of our nature to treat our fellow humans with enlightened empathy. Otherwise it’s a dog-eat-dog world, with some of us fine being dogs.

  8. Avatarjonah

    Why wouldn’t we have an equal right to healthcare? Since the corporations have a State Supported and subsidized Right to hire us at their leisure, break us at their leisure, fire us for being hurt on their unsafe jobsites, unsafe because the Governmental oversight of every aspect of “labor relations” is now in the hands of the Corporate Lawyers who have fought tooth and nail to break up unions, which would be our only Non-Governmental balance to the Corporate Citizen’s so called right to exploit us.

    But we’re doing just fine, thank you for asking.

    Just for giggles, Slivka, why not list out all the Labor Relations, OSHA and EPA administrators in the top three tiers of their respective bureaus, who are NOT corporate lawyers who have opposed OUR rights to Unionize.

    Our labor is our capital. It is the only coin we have to invest.

    Fair is fair, why should Corporate Citizens be the only ones who can pool their capital? Why shouldn’t the people who make their money for them be allowed to pool OUR capital, and negotiate contracts as a collective?

    Why should the Corporate Citizens be allowed police protection from those bad ol’ people who make their money for them organizing collective bargaining structures?

    Think it doesn’t happen exactly like that? Go undercover, work for WalMart as an “associate” and start talking Union on premises, see if the pigs don’t escort you off premises, and maybe rough you up a little, to “teach you a lesson”.

    I say WalMart because they are the New Corporate Order, to quote some capitalist fuck.

    All capitalists look and sound alike to me, maybe if y’all would concentrate on NOT looking and sounding alike, it would make it a little easier to distinguish between individual Corporate Fucks.

    But, Slivka, the “associates” including the ones who get fired and arrested and sometimes beaten for “trespassing” are part owners of the company.

    Supposedly.

    But we know how Corporate Lawyers lie. Don’t we, Slivka?

  9. AvatarEric Osmann

    “single-payer” socialized medicine

    Unfortunately this is a true statement and the sad reality so many Canadians and Brits suffer from when they need the help the most. It’s a system where age matters, not health, although I am certain that is not how the system was originally design, nor will the healthy believer believe otherwise… but I have a long family and friend’s history to say otherwise. Socialized medicine appears wonderful and by theory is, however it is evident in reality to fail those that need it the most in two great countries and will evidentially fail in the US too if ever implemented.

    For the young and the healthy the system is wonderful – no worries and great care for everyone because you don’t need it – however in the case of my nephew and his wife the system did more than expected to within hours fly my nephews wife and unborn baby in a Lear Jet from Kelowna BC to Victory BC for immediate surgery at 6 months of pregnancy because it was determined that both the baby and the mother would die before morning if the baby was not removed. The flight, surgery, and extended 5 additional months of special care for the baby (17ozs) cost the system hundreds of thousands of dollars, none of which was ever the responsibility of the patients – the tax payers of Canada took care of it. Isn’t it wonderful!

    Or is it… how did it so happen in the first place that such an incredible life threatening child birth scenario could unfold? Was it perhaps that the system failed to evaluate or properly monitor the mothers progress where routine doctor visits should have discovered that she was retaining excess water but claimed it was nothing to be concerned about… it was family members that diagnosed something was really wrong and just in time? Both mother and child are presently doing fine.

    My sister some 16 years ago routinely went to her doctor in Vancouver BC complaining of severe stomach pains and progressively worse bowel moments and was never given any attention, regardless how often she returned to the doctor or complained – she was told repeatedly that she was constipated and to eat more vegetables and fruits and not to worry. It wasn’t till a year later when she couldn’t pass anything but water that they took her seriously and checked her in to the hospital, only to then discover she had a tumor in her colon that was completely blocking her moments and slated her for surgery… some 5+ days later they got around to cutting her open and removing the blockage and discovering that she had cancer throughout her stomach. “Oops, our bad… well we give you 3-6 months to live at best!” What! Well, she struggle to live nearly 11 months to everyone’s amazement but eventually died at 42 years of age knowing that she was to become a statistics for the great medical system of Canada. The irony is that she had told the doctors that 10 years prior she had a hysterectomy because a tumor was found. She was told it was a cancer at that time but that they got it all and there was no further treatment required or offered – she went on with her life and so did the cancer – she shared this information repeatedly with her doctors and was never given advanced screening? At the time of the surgery the doctor claimed that IHHO the cancer has been growing for at least 10 years – there was absolutely no hope now. The system failed her… but is this a isolated situation?

    Perhaps, but we are but one family and I have many more stories of this wonderful system and as recent as today with yet another sister who is dying too, this time of a rare blood disease that is only curable (if at all) with a bone marrow transplant. She has been suffering from this disease for over 4 years now and the doctors had done nothing until this past year to even properly diagnose the problem but instead would only give her complete blood transfusion as a cheap solution to have her go away. It was not until the late fall when my sisters spleen had become so enlarged and the iron in her system due to all the transfusions have become life threatening did they run the much needed tests to determine what the real problem was – this after nearly three and half years. Well they determined that she would likely not survive another year at best unless she under goes a transplant ASAP, so they set out to test the family for a match but determined that first her enlarged spleen must be removed before the transplant can take place. This was in November 07 and they scheduled (so they said) the doctor to setup for the surgery… well its now March and its still not scheduled – in fact it was only discovered last week that the paper work just reached the doctor (some 4 months later). The doctor then met with her and determined she need the surgery immediately and put her on the list, which was at best three weeks out, but still a week later has not confirmed a date for the surgery and tiredly she continues to wait. She is dying slowly as she waits for the transplant after she recovers from the spleen surgery which nearly five months later has still NOT been scheduled. She is 54 years old now… at 55 the system will not consider her eligible for the procedure anymore. She can not go elsewhere, can not afford to go the states for the treatment, just has to be patient and hope that someone will squeeze her in.

    My mother broke her hip, was rushed to emergency at 83 and waited 10 hours for a room with no attention, then another four days for the surgery with limited attention due to the continued overcrowded and under staffed hospitals.

    I can go on and on for hours with so many stories of the socialize medical system that doesn’t work – the waiting in the hallways, even waiting in supply rooms for available beds, waiting for surgery, not getting personal attention, going to the states for cancer treatment because being refused the treatment in Canada or having to wait in line for it.

    I was born in Canada and as a child believed in the system because I paid only 36 dollars a year for complete coverage – but I was healthy and young… now it’s the main reason along with the taxes that I will never return. All my family members hate the system and would leave Canada if they could …

    It doesn’t work!

  10. Avatarjonah

    I converse with Canadians every day and Brits routinely as well, who say the opposite.

    I also know from my own experience, that of my wife, that of my father, and that of many of my friends that the American system is badly broken and getting worse.

    I keep getting this one horror story in diatribes from republicans who want to change my mind about it, a broken leg which took 2 months to get treatment. I asked my Canadian friends about it and none of them have heard of it outside of right-wing diatribes.

    My leg, still being worked on, after a “quick fix” and 14 years of neglect.

    From a workplace accident, in a state that has no effective labor standards, no effective unions, no effective workplace safety, an extremely limited right to sue, they can even fire you from your job if you speak to an attorney.

    So pardon me if I take that with an extremely large number of grains of salt.

    Waiting rooms? In Fort Worth, Texas, at the Tarrant County Hospital District, my sister in law was in the terminal stages of Hep C and waited there for 2 days, at the Emergency Room.

    My brother waited 18 hours, got sent home, went back the next day and waited another 12 days, only this time they took a FUCKING XRAY and he then spent 2 weeks in INTENSIVE CARE for pleurisy.

    He avoided going to the ER as his condition was worsening because, you see, they give not one single damn about the patients.

    And that’s the American system.

    HMO Have Money, Or (die)

    If the Canadian system doesn’t work, at the very least they are trying.

    But I suspect it works one fuck of a lot better than ours.

  11. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    Eric, I will try to be polite whie replying to you. You see, this issue for me is an extremely personal one, since I am employed inside the American medical system itself, as I have been for over a quarter of a century. In my family, I have seen the US system totally botch the medical situations of about 8 different family members. In fact, they never have gotten anything right. Not once. Do you think that this was because of something you call ‘socailized medicine’?

    What’s with you and Michael? You both act as if the system here is some sort of well oiled machine? Are you guys nuts? About 50 million Americans have no copverage and just rot when we come down with medical problems. You Right Wing nuts are too busy telling us horror stories about what supposedly goes on in other countries to even comment on these US realities.

    Even as I am writing these commentaries to you now, I have about four different medical problems essentially going untrreated due to lack of coverage. Are you dumb asses,so out of it, that you can’t respond to my dilemma, and the dilemma of so many others? Got nothing to say about it at all, other than talk about Canada and Britain? You guys are sick, Dudes.

    I work in the medical field, and can’t get adequate treatment for me or my family. Get it, Stupids? It’s worse here for me than if I could just walk across the Mexican-US Border and pick up the meds I need on my own. Get it, Stupids?

    If this is the situation for me, it certainly is much worse for tens of millions more, who have no training, no knowlege base to work from, nor financial resources.

    I just don’t get it with dummies who act as all is a rose garden here at home, and that things would be worse if we tried to fix what’s totally broken? It’s broke, broke, broke, Dummies!

    The care is inacccessible, horrible quality, endangers one’s health even more when you finally do jump the hurdles some, and its cost is totally prohibitive. To get some codeine for a tooth ache or cough costs about $250 and is so much trouble, most of us just totally opt out of even taking care of the most minor problems, let alone the major ones.

    You lunatics act as if that’s not the situation at all, and that all is hunky dory. Such stupid people as you need to be taken out and shot as an act of mercy to you. And to the rest of us, too.

    Look. I’m being polite now. But when we run up into such obstinate obtuseness as both you, Eric, and Michael exhibit, there’s just no way to be kind any more. You dopes don’t realize that Canada and Britian are capitalist systems, too, and the medicine practiced there is damn far from being all that good for the same reasons that the US suystem totally sucks. Medicine is BIG BUSINESS there, too, Dummies. Duh…. What’s with you twits sceaming ‘Socialism’ all the time, when it’s absolutely no such thing?

    There is some differenece though, and it is major. ALL get covered in those countries, and here we don’t. Here, it costs at least Double, too. Here, the health indicators for the population show that Americans are even more unhealthy than in those 2 countries. None of that registers on you bird brains though.

    I feel sorry for people who exhibit such low brain power that they are unable to even pretend to carry on some rational dialog about issues that negatively impact all of us, such as the sad state of medical care we are receiving. Instead, you substitute fantasy talk instead. It is impossible for people to progress in changing this monstruous situation we have where we are denied access to what is a human right, receiving adequate medical care with so many numbskulls like you two around.

    If there is a place in Hell for the both of you for knowingly and proudly being such stupid assholes, then you are headed that way for sure. That’s what you deserve for blocking access for the rest of us to getting some treatment when we come down with illnesses, all through youur persisten strupidity. Don’t tell us about what you think Canada and Britain are about, but what you plan to do to get coverage for the 50 million Americans that don’t have it? Tell us how you plan to fix the elderly care situation here? You should be ashamed that you support this country’s record on this issue. You guys are the utter pits of ASSHOLES in capital letters.

    Ever walked into some of our ‘nursing homes’, Michale and Eric? Think that their treatment is natural and just? Then you need ot buirn in Hell, Dudes. Shame on you. YOu are shameless and beyojond reemption in my opinion. I’d sooner discuss troture with Rumsfield and Alberto Gonsalez than try to get trhough your thick skulls on this one.

    OK. I’ve been as polite as I can be on this. Go get some counselling, Dudes. You’re major league fucked up on this issue. You’re lacking both a heart, and a brain.

  12. Avatarjonah

    Breathe, Tony,,,, deep breaths,,,,

    Read Eric’s comment again,,, He was putting Slivka’s statements in their proper perspective… that they were typical capitalist “free market” screw the workers capitalism.

    That Slivka and his ilk put money above people.

    Or to make it a subtler, yet more effective point, short term gains in money for a few, at the expense of actually building wealth, and if they like, capital, by investing in the capital which we, the workers, have,

    Our skills, our labor, our determination to be successful in building our future as well.

    A lot of people, Capital and Labor alike, refuse to see beyond the short term. When you are at the bottom of the Labor market, and can see only a day’s rent, food, utilities and perhaps a warm bed and a cold beer at the end of the day, with a minimum wage **or lower**paying job, and that cold heartless street without it…

    You cannot then afford to look to a future. you cannot look for Public Education for your kids, you see it being trashed by the same people who , by no coincidence, take great pride in exploiting child labor in Indonesia and China and anywhere they don’t have to see or smell or feel the misery.

    But you can’t afford to see, because your every day is geared by the Michael Slivkas of the world toward surviving one more day.

    You cannot afford Insurance, your boss who is not even paying workmen’s compensation insurance is damned sure not going to pay for Health Coverage.

    And Michael Slivka and his ilk are there to represent your boss if you get hurt on the job, or when you become so ill you can no longer work, and the boss fires you.

    He is there to represent the boss in any dispute over your right to organize unions, and to form a collective bargaining partnership with your fellow slaves… when the boss fires you AND charges you with criminal trespassing, handcuffed and beaten, Michael Slivka is there to proclaim the Divine Right of the employer, and his thug enforcers in the police and the courts, to do so.

    Tell us something, Slivka… when your greedy and wasteful masters fall, and cannot pay you to lick their boots anymore, how will you pay for all those expensive security personnel?

    Once you are poor, the police will not protect you any longer,

    When your system’s greed and waste collapses under its own weight, the police will be battling for their own lives, and they won’t have time to worry about YOURS.

    What will you do, Slivka, when you are brought low, and are forced to join all those you screwed so royally, for so long, and mocked their concerns and their needs as “trivial” or otherwise irrelevant?

    What if, Slivka, What IF some of them have been victimized so long by your system, and so poor and so desperate, that they no longer give a FUCK about your life anymore either?

    What will you offer them to appease their wrath?

    Your wealth will no longer protect you…
    Your wealth which you today are saying you got by your own efforts, and today you deny that it actually built on our labors, or on the labors of those very much like us.

    The situation at Walter Reed is the result of your leaders, Slivka, sending men to kill and die and be maimed beyond repair to ensure their wealth, and the wealth of their Favored Servants, their Lapdogs, Slivka, Like YOU.

    It is caused by the greed and manipulations of a few, turned to robbery and murder on a grand scale, Slivka.

    It is a forerunner of the poverty that will overcome our land like an Old Testament plague, Slivka.

    And though you deny it now, in your well fortified office, hiding behind a phalanx of the police, taunting those who you are robbing…

    tomorrow, you will be on the other side of those walls and that phalanx.

    What will you do, Slivka, when you are turned out of your fortress?

  13. Avatarjonah

    My bad, there were two Erics who posted.

    I just noticed the Ossmann fellow was an Eric as well…

    You did say, Slivka, that no one has a right to the fruits of somebody else’s labor… Does that mean the Corporate Leeches like yourself, Slivka, who defend the Corporation against the workers demanding a greater share of the wealth THEY THEMSELVES create, and the Corporations pay them a tiny fraction of it back?

    Does that mean the Walton family, Slivka, who exploit children?

    Are you going to give us that corporate bullshit about how they are grateful for the opportunity to work 12 or more hours a day, all the kids in the family alongside their parents, just to put food on the table?

    If your corporations are so beneficent, and so kind to the children you have working for you, why not pay them perhaps 4 times as much, they still wouldn’t be getting as much as an American worker, but then they would only have to work 3 hours a day to put food on the table for that day.

    Then maybe the corporations who exploit them could possibly build schools, and the children, instead of being your de-facto Slaves, would have time to go to those schools, improve their lives and those of the people in their families and communities?

    But that would be only if you and your ilk would be honest.

    Provide real opportunity, Slivka. Real. Not slavery. Not “shut up and get back to work or be beaten, jailed or killed”

  14. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    Hey, Jonah, I like that word ‘ilk’, too. Like in neocon ilk, say? Or fundamentalist Christian ilk. Rightist Dittohead ilk!

    And to be fair to Michael, he can refer to my positions as me being part of the history laid to rest ‘commie ilk’, or pinko ‘progressive ilk’. It’s always fun to have an ilkfest! So let’s ilk it up now, yuh hear? Too bad that Henry was just a one issue type of guy, or he could come in with calling us the ‘nutter ilk’, or some other such British ilk expression!

    Anyway, back to the medical issue at hand. Alternet has been doing a pretty fair job of covering the matter through multiple commentaries on their site. Here’s the latest, titled ‘Even Republicans Hate Our Health Care System’.
    Though not all…. it might seem. How’s that? It’s totally broke, and the article says it well here. It’s broke not just for those that are uncovered, but for those who are covered with a declining quality of coverage, and a declining quality of the care itself if ever accessed??????
    http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/48974/

  15. Avatarjonah

    Simple economics, for Simpleton Economists I guess.

    If you neglect health care for any class of society, and especially for the poor, it will spill over into other sectors of the economy.

    Kind of like cholera along the Rio Grande. I would call it the Rio Bravo but that would just confuse them.

    Cholera in Mexico would seem to be “their” problem, let “them” deal with it, right? Or Right Wing…

    Problem being that infectious diseases are, well, Infectious.

    Lack of primary health care is going to overload the Emergency Care available, for everybody, rich and poor alike.

    The employers who cut health care benefits for the “workforce” also cut corners on health and safety in the workplace.

    Thereby increasing the demand on the Health Care System.

    If they don’t want to pay for prevention, they are going to have to pay, one way or another, the far higher prices of fixing something once it breaks.

    They wouldn’t dream of running a million dollar rolling machine at a steel mill without proper maintenance. A worker on the other hand (in the short term) costs a lot less to replace.

    People who can no longer work are going to be a drain on the economy with or without public assistance.

    To describe the REAL leeches, I like ilk because it’s shorter and easier to type than “pack of rat bastards.”

    Which is in itself a slur against illegitimate children and rats, so in deference to them, it’s “ilk”.

  16. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    That preference you show for the word ‘ilk’ shows your Texas upbringing, Jonah That’s why I like that word, too, since we both grew up using it. When you cross the Red River perhaps it’s not used that much?

    Yes, I agree with you about the short mindedness of the conservative ilk. They think they enjoy good health and the rest of the world be damned. But that’s how stupid they really are. You can’t like in a gated community that much with infectious disease. So if you force most of the world to live in squalor, eventually it will catch up even with the Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbug crowd of nitwits, too.

  17. AvatarMichael Slivka

    I will respond to you, Eric V. Yes, our compassion does differentiate us from the animals (but even animals will protect their own young). Compassion and empathy have value, but only to the extent that they are voluntary. When we are forced to support others at the point of the government’s gun, all moral values are lost. Volunteer work should be voluntary. Charity is commendable, when recognized as such; but when the “have nots” begin to think they are “entitled” to the products of another man’s labor, the producer becomes the slave.

    Again, there is no “right” to medical care. You have the right of free speech, but not the right to force someone else to buy you a television station. You have the right to practice your own religion, but not the right to impose your religion on someone else. You have the right to earn your own living, but not the right to have someone else support you. Your rights end where the next guy’s rights begin.

  18. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    In your eyes, Michael, there is no right to medical care, no right to a job, no right to housing, no right to education, no right to not be thrown in jail due to not having any rights at all, other than your beloved ‘right’ to run a corporation.

    But you see, Michael, a corporation is an inherently undemocratic structure, that hordes all power behind an authoritarian economic relationship with the overwhelming majority of the population, those who have only their labor power to earn a living? A corporation awards the authoritarians that have stocks of capital, usually that they have inherited, and not earned, (though some capitalists do not inherit their hordes so much, as rather they use capital to supposedly ‘earn’ yet more capital through little real work, but off the work of others).

    Capital is principally theft, Michael, gained through some sort of cronyism, corruption, imperialism, and closing down of alternatives (creating illegal monopolies) to some group of thieves that occupy crucial intersections in societal commerce. Not at all like the pretty and infantile picture that Rightist Libertarians paint of ‘free markets’, that exist only in the fairy tale worlds in your heads.

  19. Avatarjonah

    Does your right to a corporate profit negate my right to have the fruits of my labor, rather than your corporation?

    Does your profit come from your labor, or from the labor of your employees?

    Do you live in a “company town”? One where a single industry or even single corporate entity own the whole place? Where you have the choice to work for the corporation, or have the police arrest you as a vagrant?

    Wouldn’t that be the government (police) forcing the individual to provide his labor to another private citizen (corporation) at a price that other private citizen dictates? Wouldn’t that be SLAVERY?

    Because even slaves on the plantations were compensated, sort of. They had a guaranteed home. Food enough to keep them profitable as laborers to their corporate owners. Even medical care enough to keep them healthy enough to breed more slaves, and to be profitable, once again, to their corporate owners….

    Now your corporate masters are insisting on all the privileges of slave ownership without any of the responsibilities.

    You live off our labor, but you feel you owe us nothing in return, save the minimum wage you also oppose?

    Buy all the cops you want, buy all the judges you want, and arrogantly demand that we bow before YOUR system, and demand that we call it freedom…

    YOUR cops and judges won’t be able to protect YOU or YOUR system forever, punk.

    Fuck you if you don’t like it.

    Call your fucking pig buddies on me, bitch.

    Your system already does.

  20. AvatarTony Logan Post author

    Calm down, Jonah. We owe Michael the right to some courtesy here, plus he himself is not the system he defends.

    In fact, Michael, you are doing us a favor by posting your point of view here which gives this site some contrast. You have been respectful and we appreciate that, too. What you have not done though, is actually tried much to defend your views. You will post a few poorly thought out words and a link to some Right Wing columnist commentary, and then you just disappear.

    I am quite surprised actually. With your legal training I would have thought that you would completely avoid our site altogether, or that entering into it, that you would be better prepared to actually stand and discuss the countering viewpoint, rather than just hit ancd run. Instead you have made bald assertions of what to you seem apparent, but in fact, almost fall over in the wind, so to speak.

    To Jonah and I, it is almost provoative this attitude you have, Michael, that you can come in and clearly state support for the most foul injustice (the current US Medical Sustem, for example) in a manner so glib, and then not have the guns to actually argue in any way coherently for it.

    Why don’t youu come and tell us what it is about the US Medical System that you feel is functioning so well against comparative national medical care systems. It is not enough to just give us tales about waits in Canada and Britain, when Jonah and I alone are so clearly familiar with much worse ‘waits’ in the US system. Our experiences are not atypical, so you should realize that alreadfy, though you appear to be utterly clueless that there are waits forever, and extraordinary botches inside the US system of even the simplest plans of care, much more typical of a Fourth World country rather than Britain and Canada.

  21. Avatarjonah

    I apologize for the extremity of the language.

    But, Slivka, you should sometime learn, your system is heavily weighted toward the rich.

    When you speak against us having the same basic medical care which was commonly accorded slaves, and you speak as though you have the right to get rich on our labor yet we don’t have the right to expect some fair measure of compensation for our labor, it reads very similar to certain right wing fanatics who believe that NO public education, no public health concerns, no provisions for the common welfare, yours as well as ours, should be even considered.

    These fanatics also espouse the idea that child labor in foreign countries is somehow beneficial to those children.

    Or their families or their societies.

    I mentioned Guatemala, where Anti-Union trade agreements keep such children in virtual slavery, they are paid just enough to avoid quick starvation. Guatemala is also the one nation most often invaded by United States troops, to put down rebellions against the Washington sponsored “masters”, being united states corporations which, on paper, OWN the entire nation.

    It is the epitome, but not, unfortunately, an exception to any rule, of exactly what American Imperialism is all about.

    Your right wing friends are extremely angry because their publicly funded servants in the Marine Corps, Navy, Army and Air Force have failed to put down similar “slave rebellions” in Cuba, Nicaragua and now Venezuela.

    They also express the desire, through corporate mouthpieces, lawyers if you will, to enslave American citizens as thoroughly as their slaves in Latin America.

    You might give me that “love it or leave it” crap, and say that if the people of Guatemala don’t like the conditions imposed on them, at PUBLIC expense, for the PRIVATE gains of Corporate America, they could, what, simply move? To a neighboring country, perhaps, also owned by Corporate America?

    You and your kind own the police and courts in America, That has been demonstrated to me so many times that no matter how much corporate lies you tell, I will always know the truth.

    You own them even though we are required to pay for them.

    Who exactly is enslaving WHOM, Slivka?

    We no longer have recourse to petition the courts or any other aspect of a government that is run exclusively by and for Corporations, Slivka.

    Your corporations have Our sons and daughters, our cousins, our fathers and mothers, fighting wars purely for the benefits of Corporations.

    We are not only paying taxes to support these exercises in robbery and murder, we are paying OUR blood.

    But, Slivka, that won’t last forever. If you and your kind continue to lock us out of representation in OUR Government, then we will take it back.

    By force.

    We might gain nothing more than the satisfaction of wiping those smug platitudes out of your lying mouths. And seeing your blood running in the streets.

    But YOU, Slivka, and YOUR hirelings, in the police and the courts, WILL pay.

  22. AvatarThe 13th

    Thanks and harrassment to all the bloggers this surly morn…

    Ok, Springs people! Once again you’ve localized what once was a much broader subject: Wheelchariots and Ben Hur’s Hubcap Repair.

    I’m surprised this topic led to so much digression per general health care. I do recall my asking for submissions about outside U.S. health care in a DIFFERENT column about health care in general. Whatever, thanks everyone for the info/opinions.

    Back to Tony’s original write, it’s a shame the U.S. can’t find more appropriations to fully support its infrastructure. And it is indeed a contrast of “heroism” when ill-funded medicine receives over-funded war.

    I think Tony is (in part) reminding us of a concept that Americans have considered (in part) for years. It’s the premise of old tv show M*A*S*H even. It shouldn’t be innoculous to grasp improving healthcare, nor is it wrong that Tony reminds us to grasp it in the unconditional heart, not the lounge chair nor the battle zone.

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