And why it all counts.
Since the whole Israel Right-Of-Return is a huge part of any Any ANY issue involving the modern state of Israel.
It’s not just Religious Talk, so if you’re offended by Biblical references then toughie-poo.
The Bible just happens to be one of the premier sources for Israeli history.
AND.. Arab History
AND Palestinian history.
This is really oversimplifying things, but to most Americans Judah and Israel are equivalent and Palestinian and Arab are interchangeable terms.
To those no-doubt Highly Paid Lobbyists For the Israeli “DEFENSE” Force who insist on calling us liars or ignorant or hate-mongers or whatever, this will be Kindergarten stuff, …
ASSUMING OF COURSE THAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE JEWISH and/or BIBLICAL SCHOLARS or SERIOUSLY AS EXPERT ON THE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL ASPECTS OF THE REGION THEY CLAIM THEMSELVES TO BE (and of course, as they claim we cannot possibly be…)
After the reign of Solomon, just to start, in the middle where a beginning properly belongs, Just Ask Steven Spielberg…
After the Reign of Solomon Israel and Judah were two separate Kingdoms.
Israel, and Judah.
Remember that because it is important and there will be a quiz later, which will count for 57.3% of your total grade.
After the kingdom of Israel got their collective head knuckled by Assyria (Remember Jonah?) but not Judah, and then a short while (historically speaking) later Nebuchadnezzar conquered BOTH and carried away into captivity… NOT EVEN MOST of Israel or Judah, Because They Left The Poor People Behind… (Remember Jeremiah? Of course you do…)
At this point the remnants of the Philistines aka Phoenicia aka Lebanon… a Greek culture…
And the remnants of Moab, descendants of one of the sons/slash/Grandsons of Lot (by his two daughters,)
( you know, Moses wasn’t very Kind or Gentle when he described the doings of his relatives, but he cut Lot a “lot” of slack, claiming he was too drunk to recognize his own daughters)
And the remnants of Edom, descended from Esau, the brother of Jacob aka Israel…
and various tribes of actual Arabs, descendants of Abraham’s first son Ishmael
And even the descendants of the recently (relatively) Dismantled Hittite and Assyrian Empires…
And throw in Ethiopians, Egyptians and Nubians who were stranded in the back and forth conquests over several centuries.
THESE were the people who lived in Israel and Judah at the time.
When people babble much about the Lost Tribes of Israel they’re refering to the Kingdom of Israel which consisted of the vast majority of the tribes of Israel save for Judah and Levi.
And They’re Not “lost” in the sense that they up and disappeared either, it’s “lost” like in the RELIGIOUS context.
More on that…
Remember how I said that Moses was NOT overly kind to the memory of his ancestors and relatives?
Of course you do.
Some of the highest ranking members of the Knesset and Mossad were quoted/slash/interviewed by a Religious Scholar from Colorado Springs and it gets routinely broadcast on TBS.
Who popped off with the Really Racist viewpoint, seconded and aided by the Israelis, that since many (but not all) of the Palestinians are descended from Esau, aka Edom, and their country called Idumea by the Romans, and they considered Esau to be a vagabond and lazy, shiftless and ignorant….
They consider ALL Palestinians to be Lazy Shiftless and Ignorant Vagabonds.
The term “morally dissolute” was thrown in as well, and the notion that ALL the descendants were morally dissolute Because Of Their Ancestry.
Not Racist? I can easily see that it IS… Extremely Racist.
Moses said that Jacob, ISRAEL, cheated Esau out of his birthright, his possessions and even the blessings of their father Isaac.
Stole, and Lied to do it.
That’s two of G_d’s Top Ten on His personal Hit Parade.
When Joseph, 11th son of Israel and first son of his favorite wife Rachel, was sold into slavery by his 10 elder brothers, according to Moses and generally recognized by both Muslim and Jew (the religious groupings) as being accurate, JUDAH wanted to have Joseph killed.
Here Moses plea bargains for his own ancestor Levi, (he wasn’t Ethnically a Jew, although he was Israelite, and Hebrew, but… the Edomites are ALSO Hebrew…
According to Moses, Levi prevented his brothers and especially JUDAH from Killing Their Brother, and was allegedly somehow not aware that a Passing Band of Arabs (Ishmaelites) was so close to their camp, as in “right in the middle of their encampment” that they managed to buy Joseph without Levi knowing about it until much later.
Moses was a Prophet but he was first a Man, and people don’t go out of their way to disrespect Grampa.
Judah also married his own daughter-in-law, OK so she was actually the widow of two of her sons, but here Moses tries not to be nasty about his kinfolk… Judah thought she was a prostitute, “went in unto her” and knocked her up, before marrying her… and without of course consulting his wife.
But, hey, it’s the EDOMITES who are “morally dissolute” right?
Racist? Hell yeah that’s racist.
Let’s flash forward again, this time to Right After The Babylonian Captivity.
The King of Persia (Iran) allowed the priesthood and as many of the Judean (Jews) Captives to return to Israel and Judah.
There they found that the poor who were left to tend the lands in Israel and Judah and Edom and Moab and Lebanon had intermarried.
Oh, NO!
Say it ain’t so, Jonah!
Jewish people intermingling with the Goyim? Gasp! Oh the Horrors!
Ezra and Nehemiah, the two Levite Priests who led the Return to the Land… Thanked the Israelite and Moabite and JEWISH peasants for keeping the land as well as could be expected, then condemned them for Not Maintaining Racial Purity.
And kicked them off the Rich Folks’ lands which they had been tending for more than 70 years.
“Thank you for all your time and labor, now Get Off My Property You Smelly Racially Impure Peasants YOU!”
These then are the “Lost Tribes” of Israel.
Where did they go? They didn’t. They’re still there.
In the New Testament they’re called “Samaritans”.
The parable of the “Good Samaritan” must have raised quite a few Elitist Pharisaic Eyebrows because the Pharisees and Sadducees considered anybody not Wealthy and Elite like themselves to be Ignorant Peasant Scum…
Plus they weren’t Racially Pure.
The Romans didn’t carry off ALL of the people in the region as slaves, not even all of the Jews.
Same way the Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites and Alexander the Great didn’t.
Evidence, you say?
I mean, evidence aside from that already accepted by “Israel” and their FAMILY who are also Children of Israel the Palestinians?
Boy, you sure drive a hard bargain, but OK, here’s Evidence.
Olive Groves and Vineyards.
Sure Olive trees and grape vines grow wild in the region, but we’re talking Massive Cultivation of them.
Olive Groves and Vineyards that are older than the Roman Empire.
On land where if they were to survive at all they had to be Irrigated.
Anybody who has ever done Farming (And here I’ll excuse the Intellectual Elites like Don and Grace and Mary and David Haddad, who might all be the Same Person with different names)
I’ll excuse you because I don’t believe you’ve ever put hand to shovel or hoe or axe.
BUT I HAVE.
Maintaining an agricultural enterprise of any sort requires Hard Work.
In modern times there are machines which take up most of the Hard Work but they’ve only existed about a century and a half.
For 20 times as long these Groves and Vineyards have been tended by hand.
Irrigation ditches mean Water… and Dirt… Combined.
You have to clear the weeds out of the irrigation ditches at least 5 times a year just to keep the water running.
And if you’re using shovel, axe and hoe to do it it’s one hell of a lot of hard work.
If you’re doing it in Palestine Israel it’s one Hell of a lot of Hard Work under a Relentless Merciless Blazing Sun.
Olive Trees that were planted 60 years ago wouldn’t be producing yet.
They DO take that long.
You plant an Olive Grove not in the hopes that YOU, yourself, will ever eat the fruit thereof, because you most likely WON’T, but instead for your grandchildren.
A Vineyard will start producing within a decade, but it takes centuries to get one going full blast.
“Israeli” Wine and Olives? And in only 60 years?
Sir No Sir!
Those vineyards and groves were tended, by hand, for centuries and even millenia by those “Lazy Shiftless Morally Dissolute” Arabs, Edomites, Moabites and ISRAELITES who make up the Palestinian Nation.
Right to Return? What about the Right To Remain?
Those ARE Israel and have been for thousands of years.
Acknowledged as such by the scriptures that you as Jews and I as a Christian and the Muslims to be the Truth.
If you want to pop off with the “Right Of Return” and quote Scripture to justify your actions you have to Be Judged By Scripture as well.
That’s the Essence of the Law of Moses.
“Behold, I set a stumbling block in Zion”.
Oh, and speaking of Moses, that bit about “Thou Shalt Not Kill”?
#6 on G-d’s Top Ten List… yeah, THAT one…
You know, G_D meant what He said.
That’s why they’re called the Ten Commandments and not “a bunch of Meaningless Suggestions”.
In order to judge someone to Death you have to be Pure yourself.
That means, (and of course, as David Haddad said in his many personalities, I’m “ignorant” and don’t know a Damned thing)
That means You Must Have NEVER committed any of the sins punished by Death according to the Law of Moses.
Even if you were redeemed of the penalty of your sins, “Redeemed” simply means that the debt was paid, not that it never existed.
Watch out, Jonah! You’re debating Scripture with Jesus Freaks… sorry I meant Torah Freaks here.
Nowhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament, nor even in the Koran, is there a reference to “Palestinians” Palestinians=Arabs. There is no unique Palestinian culture or Palestinian religion or Palestinian language. Actually, later references to Palestinians entailed Israeli Jews. UN Res. 242 is often referenced as an argument for Israel leaving the territories, and 242 doesn’t even contain the word Palestinian.
Yes, that’s right Morton, they don’t exist! And neither do you either!
Tony Logan,
You are misinterpreting what Morton Perelman stated. He is talking about the fairly recent origins of a Palestinian national identity, not claiming that Palestinians do not exist.
I thought he was writing about the Quran, ‘Don’?
“Yes, that’s right Morton, they don’t exist!”
That’s obviously not what I wrote. You have a trigger response mechanism. I merely am correcting your separation of Arabs and Palestinians. They are one and the same, and I was refuting your suggestion that the Bible references “Palestinians” It does not. Prior to Arafat adopting the term Palestinian for his own political purposes, Israelis were synonymously known as Palestinians.
You still, Morton, don’t address their ancestry beyond an unfounded Racist Claim.
Tho Olive Groves and Vineyards say otherwise.
They’ve been Continuously maintained for more than 3,000 years.
Then there’s the DNA databases maintained both by the Israeli version of ICE and by the Assasination Bureau (Mossad)
The Knesset has a problem, you see.
Jews from Eastern Europe have been immigrating in large numbers, more so than American Jews like yourself who distance themselves from the actual battle but provide “support” like your Keyboard Warrior Routine.
They also, due the huge number of pogroms especially in Poland and the Ukraine, like Every Easter… had quite a large number of the Synagogue records destroyed.
Happens like that when they burn your buildings down.
Oh, and that wasn’t done by Muslims either. Just thought I’d point that out.
And then theres the Ethiopian Jews whose synagoge records go back to the time of Solomon.
But they’re schwartzers so of course the Knesset, who aren’t in any way Racist mind you, (did you go back and re-read Ezra and Nehemiah?) rejects their claims almost automatically.
But there are a lot of Jews, even and especially in Israel, who AREN’T so bloodthirty they would have to kill babies just to prove their “manhood”.
Did you know, the vast majority of people in the world have Never Once Personally Taken A Human Life? Even the vast majority of members of al Qa’eda, Hizbollah and Hamas…
Back to the Fact that there are Israelis even in the Knesset who ARE concerned with the Human Rights of the Ethiopian JEWS and the Palestinian PEOPLE.
To the point that DNA testing is now one standard of proof accepted.
Mossad keeps DNA rocords mainly to facilitate their Assassination Duties.
G_d is not a respecter of persons, Morton. There is NO group of people on Earth who are destined by birthright to rule over others.
Did you know that a lot of English and American English Goyim “Zionists” like Ted Haggard believe England and the English People to be the “Lost Tribes”?
But as to the Palestinians not being a State, that’s because their land is under the control of the United States Empire through their proxies in the Knesset.
Gaza and the West Bank and Samaria were military conquests, and the people in those lands have been denied either citizenship in Israel or autonomy.
Especially, since the population of Palestine has more than doubled just in the past 20 years, far more in the past 42, the vast majority of them were born AFTER 1967.
And as I said, the Israeli Judah claim to the sole possesion of the name and birthright of ISRAEL, a Kingdom and a name that Judah rejected a thousand years before the Diaspora began, starts in Scripture that recognizes the Arabs, the Moabites, Edom, Samaria… and recognizes that these claims are every spot as legitimate as those of Judah.
The Knesset might not recognize it, AIPAC might not recognize it, Judah as a whole might not recognize it, but the evidence is there.
And won’t go away from a Racist statement that the Palestitians as a people don’t exist.
Incidentally, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Syria also reject the Palestinian people on the same grounds of Racial and Cultural Purity as you did, Morton.
Just they’re not the ones who are, you know, Killing Children in Palestine.
And, Morton, I know that you personally aren’t either.
You’re just cheerleading for those who do.
And if you don’t accept Scripture as evidence, and a lot of Zionists are definitely NOT religious, then there would be absolutely NO claim for Judah to occupy Israel.
I’ll go out on a metaphorical limb here and just make an Ass of U and Me that you’re not very interested in the DNA evidence either.
See, I told you, Morton, Don, David Haddad, whichever name you’re using today, that it was a vastly simplified version of the really complex social, familial, ethnic, religious and the Umbrella Over Them All political aspects of what’s happening.
Knesset and even some of our Internet Trolls such as yourself say that the Palestinians have no popular support,
That must be why you’re so eager to suppress with your pointless racist Knesset Propaganda any question of the U.S. AIPAC and Knesset’s “Justifcations” of what they’re doing.
Megaphone.
Jonah,
DNA evidence confirms that Jews and Arabs share historical legitimacy in the Middle East. For example, the January 14, 2006 issue of The New York Times reported:
In the case of the Ashkenazi population, the researchers found that many branches coalesced to single trees, and so were able to identify the four female ancestors.
Looking at other populations, the Technion team found that some people in Egypt, Arabia and the Levant also carried the set of mutations that defines one of the four women. They argue that all four probably lived originally in the Middle East.
Rebeka, Sarah and the two daughters of Lot?
Which again confirms all claims.
ALL.
(except for that absurd English claim)
Gah! A half sentence does not a paragraph make. This post is just too hard to read to make any sense of, sort of like parts of the Bible.
Like I said near the beginning, it’s a drastically simplified version.
And since those scriptures would be the entire justification of Any issue in the middle east today, or for the past 37 centuries, then that perspective had to be mentioned.
It’s a double edged blade that cuts all directions too.
As to “is it easy to read” you just got to pay attention.
The Easy To Read shit is slogans like “My Country, right or wrong” “Big Brother is always right” “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Baaaaaaddddd” which is the essence of the arguments put forth over and over and over and over and over by the Megaphone.
Simple just doesn’t satisfy the need.
If it were simple the problems would have been resolved a long long long time ago in a galaxy far far away…
It’s not like a made-for-TV movie that’s over in two hours, “the Bad Guys all get killed and the Good Guys win The End” oh, look, Wheel of Fortune is on next…
You lost me @ “toughie poo” REALLY!? Palestine=Philistia. Gen.12:3 is forever. If it’s not then, the god YOU worship is weak or lying. I, on the other hand, will choose the GOD who claims to never change. It seems that this GOD is an in-convenience for you folks. If god changed his mind about Israel, what else has he changed his mind about………..
Yes, the promise is forever. So are the equivalent ones given to Ishmael, Esau and even my namesake Jonah the prophet. It is also reciprocal. Moses and Joshua had the people swear an oath to uphold the entire law. The other side of the oath is about purification sometimes by scourging. As in the whole people punished if they didn’t hold the position of righteousness.
I suppose you might have read the account of the first death recorded in the Bible? 25% of known human population at one hit.
When God braced up Cain about it, he cops an attitude and mouths off to God “am I my brothers keeper?” And God spends the entire rest of the Bible saying we ARE our brothers keepers. With the Hebrew people (all of them) serving as really bad examples.
Ephraim v Gilead, Everybody v Benjamin… Israel v everybody..
The point (and we were slammed that week) was these guys are a family so very intertwined, in a tiny land, for a long time marrying their cousins. Brothers in every sense of the Word.
Alternated with killing each other. That’s not keeping their brothers or keeping the Law. And it is impossible to have residency there without being part of the family. The Likud Regime have pretty much co-opted the NAME Israel but they are not the entire people of Israel, nor the entire people of Judah. Judah is a small part of Israel. Abraham did become the father of nations.
And all the bitterness of 3700 years is threatening the world. Please don’t blame God for what is being done in His name. I frankly believe He didn’t order a hit on anybody. Cain to the present.