Eric and I had fun in Costa Rica playing with a rainbow in the hills outside Santa Elena. We traveled down a narrow bumpy road until the bright double rainbow appeared to end in the backyard of the only house in sight. An inspiring illusion to be sure, but still only an illusion. Rainbows are like that, aren’t they? Manipulable to a point; there, but not, depending on your vantage point; seen by all, fully comprehended by few. As kids we dreamed of finding the promised pot of leprechaun gold, but we never could quite get there. The promise forever remained only a promise.
Chasing rainbows has become our financial pastime of late. Golden parachutes, speculation, valuation, debt forgiveness, creative accounting, off-book transactions, suspense accounts, slush funds, contra accounts, accruals, clean opinions, full disclosure, extraordinary items, going concerns, immateriality — I could go on for hours. We have a financial system that’s impossible to discern, is largely illusory and widely un-understood. Even by its makers.
The fractional reserve system, patently illegal not so long ago, means that our money isn’t a paper representation of what actually is, it is only what they say it is, which is whatever it is, I suppose. I’m told it’s lost 50% of its value in the past decade which means, I guess, that it’s now something other than what it was. And who knows what it will be tomorrow?
It would seem that printing off billions more crisp banknotes to give to soulless corporate people, whose paper assets and liabilities can be altered with the stroke of a pen, means little to anyone except the publicly-traded rich.
Is it any wonder that no one – which includes everyone – can get their arms around this mess? We don’t understand what’s really going on so we keep doing what we do, which is whatever that is, on any given day. Today Obama is coming to Denver to sign his economic stimulus plan into law — 1588 pages of freshly-printed unread paper that will solve our economic crisis and put us back on the road to financial prosperity.
I can’t recall where the momentous event is to take place, but I imagine it’s somewhere over the rainbow.
I’m reading about the Sumarians (5,300 – 2,000 B.C.) FROM THE TABLETS OF SUMER: 39 Firsts in Man’s Recorded History. The Sumarians originated civilization as we know it, and their demise may look a lot like ours too. In case you missed the memo, Sumer was earliest Mesopotamia in southern Iraq.
Until the mid 19th Century, we didn’t know Sumerians from Adam. Their history is traced by now deciphered cuneiform writings on clay vessels. Now thanks to Bush’s Folly, we may learn very little more.
Until I have more to relate, I’ll treat you to the table of contents, where Princeton Assyriologist Samuel Noah Kramer lays out his thesis. You might be surprised at which cultural themes are apparently elemental.
From the Tablets of Sumer was published in 1956. The latest edition, History Begins at Sumer can be read online. Kramer also compiled an 18-volume Sumerian dictionary.
Thirty-Nine Firsts in Man’s Recorded History
1. EDUCATION: The First School
2. SCHOOLDAYS: The First Case of “Apple-Polishing”
3. FATHER AND SON: The First Case of Juvenile Delinquency
4. INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: The First “War of Nerves”
5. GOVERNMENT: The First Bicameral Congress
6. CIVIL WAR IN SUMER: The First Historian
7. SOCIAL REFORM: The First Case of Tax Reduction
8. LAW CODES: The First “Moses”
9. JUSTICE: The First Legal Precedent
10. MEDICINE: The First Pharmacopoeia
11. AGRICULTURE: The First “Farmer’s Almanac”
12. HORTICULTURE: The First Experiment in Shade-Tree Gardening
13. PHILOSOPHY: Man’s First Cosmogony and Cosmology
14. ETHICS: The First Moral Ideals
15. SUFFERING AND SUBMISSION: The First “Job”
16. WISDOM: The First Proverbs and Sayings
17. “AESOPICA”: The First Animal Fables
18. LOGOMACHY: The First Literary Debates
19. PARADISE: The First Biblical Parallels
20. A FLOOD: The First “Noah”
21. HADES: The First Tale of Resurrection
22. SLAYING OF THE DRAGON: The First “St. George”
23. TALES OF GILGAMESH: The First Case of Literary Borrowing
24. EPIC LITERATURE: Man’s First Heroic Age
25. TO THE ROYAL BRIDEGROOM: The First Love Song
26. BOOK LISTS: The First Library Catalogue
27. WORLD PEACE AND HARMONY: Man’s First Golden Age
28. ANCIENT COUNTERPARTS OF MODERN WOES:
The First “Sick” Society
29. DESTRUCTION AND DELIVERANCE: The First Liturgic Laments
30. THE IDEAL KING: The First Messiahs
31. SHULGI OF UR: The First Long-Distance Champion
32. POETRY: The First Literary Imagery
33. THE SACRED MARRIAGE RITE: The First Sex Symbolism
34. WEEPING GODDESSES: The First Mater Dolorosa
35. AU-A A-U-A: The First Lullaby
36. THE IDEAL MOTHER: Her First Literary Portrait
37. THREE FUNERAL CHANTS: The First Elegies
38. THE PICKAXE AND THE PLOW: Labor’s First Victory
39. HOME OF THE FISH: The First Aquarium
Because his only hard-core fan club anymore are the more reactionary members of the Wreligious Wrong…
For 8 years, more actually, American Foreign Policy has been based on the theme “Oderint Dum Metuant” which means “Let them hate us, as long as they fear us”
A favorite of the Roman Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar the Second, aka Caligula.
Who really has a lot in common with Cheney. The main difference is Caligula is already burning in Hell and Cheney is just waiting his turn.
Of course, he in the interview where he basically tried to COMMAND President Obama to continue the unfettered and unregulated Torture Program… pause…
(Here I’ll interject, the Right Wing Lunatic Plague will scream and whine in their Sunday-best Shrill Voices that “it’s not unregulated, theirs Judicial Review (by judges who are under the direct command of the Torture Freaks) and you lefties are just being Mean and we’re going to cry about it”)
…un-pause…So he instead trots out a line from Machiavelli
“It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.” Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 – 1527), “The Prince”
Which is very much the same thing said by ancient Italian Dictator Caligula.
Another quote from the same book
“…people are fickle by nature; and it is simple to convince them of something but difficult to hold them in that conviction; and, therefore, affairs should be managed in such a way that when they no longer believe, they can be made to believe by force.”
Which is the philosophy expressed by Lee Atwater, another fascist criminal already in Hell, and by Karl Rove, another one like Cheney awaiting his turn.
in the Project for the New American (Imperial) Century.
My what wonderful company they keep.
No wonder the Nazis vote Republican.
Now, I had forgotten to code in the end of the block-quote there at the proper place, so it kind of ran together and makes a lot less sense than if the quote were accurately finished. Here, I attempt to fix that.
“…people are fickle by nature; and it is simple to convince them of something but difficult to hold them in that conviction; and, therefore, affairs should be managed in such a way that when they no longer believe, they can be made to believe by force.”
Which is the philosophy expressed by Lee Atwater, another fascist criminal already in Hell, and by Karl Rove, another one like Cheney awaiting his turn.
Rove and Cheney and Jeb Bush (the “smart brother”) expressed that in the Project for the New American (Imperial) Century.
My what wonderful company they keep.
No wonder the Nazis vote Republican.
The Prince, by the way, was political advice given to a petty dictator in a city-state that now holds no power beyond its suburbs, on how to hold power for as long as possible. Which doesn’t extend to “eternal” or even “epic”.
Is there more to senator-aspirant Roland Burris being turned away in DC, than political theater? Illinois governor Blagojevich was caught asking for payola to decide the appointment. Did he get the money? Without asking, the DC Dems are acting like the unassuming Mr. Burris is the pay-to-play golden ticket holder. I suspect the undistinguishing features which allay our suspicions about the septuagenarian may be the very traits which interest his sponsors.
In boxing, it’s called a ringer.
While some Democrats are content to ask the would-be junior senator if he’d consent to be a modest placeholder until the 2010 election, I think that’s exactly what he’s intended to be, but not for the Dems. Burris is a placeholder for the GOP. The uncharismatic Burris, regular-loser of elections, is meant to remove any incumbent advantage the Democrats would hope to cultivate in the next two years. Burris would waste that opportunity, then face a Republican challenger in the next election and lose.
Who did you think was offering big bucks for the senate seat? Was someone going to pay multi-millions to put Jesse Jackson in Washington? If the Dems had dibs on the party affiliation of Barack Obama’s old office anyway, why was Blagojevich expecting that an ally would pay millions to install one particular Democrat over another?
Who would have been offering the millions, except bidders dismayed at Blagojevich’s nonpartisan disloyalty. Maybe the Democratic Party’s insufficient coffers, and the projected Republican gained foothold, is what drew colleagues to unleash investigators to nail the turncoat sumbitch politician.
Though no one’s asking such questions, Burris cuts short the proforma inquiries, about his links to the governor’s alleged graft, with mock surprise that his personal record might invite suspicion. Except, what is Burris’s public record but a trail of failed elections? He has no accomplishments other than the elections in which he played straw man or spoiler and he lost every one. Perhaps he has always been an innocent pawn. It would seem pretty damn racist to suggest the diminutive black man has never been accomplice to the scheme, even now.
No one dares be seen critical of Burris, who would be the only African American in the Senate. And the media is not about to spoil the GOP fix. Burris is in, and apparently it’s all legal. And inevitable. The best legal opinions the media want to parade before us explain that because the governor is still in office, his appointment of Burris is legitimate. Even though the crime is the very act which installed Burris.
Does that make sense to you? A bank robber gets to keep the bank’s money until he’s faced a jury of his peers? A court order could secure the monies for the bank, lest the accused gamble it all in Vegas, or score big, and return with a better legal team.
An injunction could prevent Blagojevich and partners from enjoying the fruits of their crime, until the mess is untangled. But the corporate media and the GOP have put the Democrats in the difficult position of turning Burris away.
WELL, YES HE IS NOW… He is co- Commander in Chief.
It should be becoming increasingly clear to the public by now that both Dubya and Barack have the same programs to ‘rescue the economy’ through increasing government debt, ‘surging’ in Afghanistan, and green lighting Israel’s slaughter in Gaza. Did I mention that they both plan to stay in Iraq, though after the inauguration it will be Barack totally in command of this operation? Does anybody seriously still believe that Barack is somehow against keeping Iraq an occupied country with US troops? Really? Then what kind of dope are you are on would be my question to you?
U.S. could be facing debt ‘time bomb’ this year is the Barack plan for ‘change’, as Obama sugar coats the Democrats plan to bailout the corporate elites with a shallow promise to supposedly create 3,000,000 jobs. Sure you will, Barack, and you will throw the US government into bankruptcy along with your Republican and your Clintonite buddies screwing us, the working public, over royal. It’s clear who your real friends are, and it ain’t us.
And the con game that Barack is playing about not being in office yet with an inability to change US government policy towards Israel’s invasion of Gaza is totally phony. Shoot! Barack and his Buddies are already plotting out space wars with China in the years ahead even. Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link (Update1) It’s just pure gullibility on the part of anybody that actually believes that Obama is not able to intervene in regards to Israel bombing and invading Gaza. The same type of gullibility that made some folk think that Dennis Kucinich was some sort of DP Golden Boy, too. Not much a menace to the gun toting Barack-Hillary group at the top of the party is Dennis. He can’t even open his mouth having caught the same bug that must be ailing Barack on this matter.
And Bush and Obama are walking hand in hand on the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, continuing US torture of POWs, and threatening the Russians, too. Surprising isn’t it, that President Mr. BIG CHANGE has not muttered one word about ending official US government policy of torturing its POWs? He plans merely to cover it up and pretend otherwise. Barack is as much war without end as the Republicans he is now copying like a parrot for.
Don’t get it wrong. Obama will enter into office with a virtual bombardment of meaningless ‘change’ rhetoric, since that is his forte. He’s good at saying nothing real while doing a shuffle. You can continue to fall for it if you want, but think how stupid you will feel down the line? Your only excuse will be…. At least he wasn’t Dick Cheney and Dubya. Small consolation though for you inactivity while you made excuses for this crew. Barack and Dubya are walking hand in hand now, and that’s what your vote bought.
So this is what some of the Thieves did with our money after Mr Bush and his tame Congress gave it to them…
I would go into a schpiel parodying the Republican Talking Points about how the Pigs really do all the hard work of leadership and thus deserve the Apples and the Milk and to occupy the Farmhouse, use the barley as beer instead of feeding their starving constituents and and and… I’m just too tired right now.
The Squealer Speeches can be found in this lovely book called “Animal Farm”, they were just as much Crap when Orwell wrote it as they are when Bill-o and Rush and Their Legion Of Psychotic Sycophants spew it on us today.
These guys Ran The Entire World into the ground.
Under the ground.
Seriously, their plane hit the ground and buried itself about a hundred feet deep. They float down on Golden Parachutes, observe the wreckage scene, shrug cavalierly and say “Oh well, (Orwell?) Doesn’t seem to be much point trying to save the passengers, but if you give us ANOTHER PLANE… we’ll fly that one better”
Why? Because they “deserve” it.
Notice the “gratuities” tab, just under $3K… on a bill that topped a half million… counting the In Call services, cause them boyz ain’t gonna party without the Paid Poon-tang either.
3K, now that’s Reaganite “Trickle Down” in action there.
Guess we’re supposed to Get The Hell Used To It…
Notice they started the party before the bail-out was announced…
Man, I tell ya whut, those dudes sure can be some OBNOXIOUS bastards when they set their minds to it.
Is the strategy to pay this ransom, then have the robbers intercepted as they make their escape? What other excuse will Democrats Pelosi and Reid offer for coming home with a bag full of 140,000,000,000 wooden nickels? That money’s gone if we don’t STOP THEM! STOP THEM NOW!
We hear pundits say the bailout sum is beyond comprehension. Nonsense. It’s our prosperity, our health, the pursuit of happiness we offer our children and take for granted. Gone. Unless there is still time to shout down the miscreants in Washington. As we see the politicians of every stripe complicit in this heist, and insufficient outcry in the streets, isn’t it hard not to conclude Americans are getting what they deserve? If you have any gut feeling that you DO NOT WANT TO STAND IDLY BY, listen to Michael Moore: (although the DC email/phone connection appears to have been pulled.)
Friends,
Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies — who must soon vacate the White House — are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday’s New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
“Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
“Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
“At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
“Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury’s proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions.”
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to “consult” in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this “collapse” is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn’t know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can’t figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this “bailout” package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What’s this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called “collapse” was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people’s home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it’s because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn’t afford. Here’s the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage “crisis” may never have happened.
This bailout’s mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It’s to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It’s to make sure their yachts and mansions and “way of life” go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something — NOW! Here’s what you can do immediately:
1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they’ve made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what’s the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.
P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we’ll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say “NO!” If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW.
I may be too impressionable, but I’ve warmed up to Sarah Palin. For President! The American two-party delusion needs a coup-de-grace, and doesn’t Palin have just authenticity enough to pull the trigger? Assail this logic if you can.
The Democratic Party is already out of the picture. Since reclaiming Congress in 2006 the Dems have shown Americans what they can do. Nothing. Name the issue, whatever their constituents want, the Democrats won’t deliver it. They can’t even commandeer a lead in the polls against the most despised political machine in recent memory. They’ve got a charismatic candidate who can run pirouettes around his opponent, a corrupt, desperate, lying geriatric. But the Dems can’t sway the corporate media from allegiance to the GOP.
How many rotten eggs do you need hatched? The Democrats are already rolling over for 2008 election irregularities. They will give in to Wall Street’s trillion-plus dollar extortion. And they won’t end the war, or stop torture, or defend the Constitution, or impeach genocidal bastards, regardless the public’s outrage. The Democratic Party is a dead lost cause. Dead.
The Republican Party is still kicking -the shit out of us- and they’ve no doubt got plenty left in them. We learned in just the space of a week that the GOP financiers must get their money or they’ll break the economy’s kneecaps. What kind of odds do you want the goons won’t be back for more?
We used to imagine that asset-stripping capitalists knew enough not to kill the golden goose, but maybe we underestimate the standard of living (ours) left to strangle from her.
Republican journeymen such as McCain, Lieberman, Graham, and cronies Paulson et Cheney, won’t stop at extracting your gold fillings. But novitiate Sarah Palin just may have a less developed depth of greed.
I’ve made this mistake before, when I imagined George W. Bush too simple to know that absolute power was his to corrupt. But don’t you have the sense Sarah Palin is the real deal? There’s no Prescott Bush in her bloodline. Palin will loot only as much as she can stash in a Winnebago. Then she’ll apply herself to her spiritual calling. She’s no Tammy Faye. To my mind, Palin’s religiosity is sufficiently extreme to appear genuine.
There may of course remain Halliburton machinations behind Palin’s flirty church lady. But the oligarchs’ growing mendacity, combined with Sarah Palin’s small-minded zealotry, could bring Fascist America beyond the pale. I think the GOP legacy could finally close the book on our nation’s Democracy fable. If we survive it, the Republicans will be gone for good.
Slick Willie to Address Democrats, YES there is no getting away from the repulsive in the Democratic Party. I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe Lieberman speaks at the DNC either?
What do liberal nitwits think the Democratic Party is? It is the political party that worked together with the Republican Party since 1990 to demolish and terrorize the country of Iraq. No wait a second! They were working together back when they both had Saddam Hussein on board as an ally and agent which they used to batter the country of Iran, kill Iraqi Kurds with chemical weapons, and who now together again, the RP-DP once again want to terrorize the Iranians and demolish their country’s sovereignty to shreds ala like what they once did with their Holy Shah of Iran, may he rest in Hell where he currently resides!
And the Democrats are the party of national wealth give away to the military industrial complex in the country of Gulag prisons everywhere. What on earth do nitwit flag-draped liberals think this party is? Oh, I know! They think it marginally better than the party of the other nitwit Americans, the Republicans. Well they are flat out wrong since the Democrats might even be worse since they talk a little more confusingly to the general public. See… They certainly confused the nitwit Democratic Party voting liberal into thinking that they somehow represent democracy, when all they represent are the big corporations and their profit making off everybody else.
Personally I wouldn’t trust Barack Obama as next door neighbor let alone as president of the US. Of course we can only get the one or the other, but quite frankly they both suck and only nitwits could think otherwise. They both suck because both The Democratic and Republican Parties suck.
You don’t have to be an Einstein to figure that out yet somehow the liberal can’t? They will all be glued to the tube watching Slick Willie once again, just like in the Golden Times (to these nitwits) of the past. Choose your Klan to run the country for other folk than yourselves, Nitwits. That’s both Republican and Democratic voter version of the American nitwit species. You are a team!
It used to be we had reporters who asked questions. KARL ROVE DEFIES SUBPOENA, LEAVE COUNTRY. Oh? And to where did he flee? Can’t a subpoena be grounds to bar someone exiting the country? Rove’s convenient getaway was long-planned? Do all the Neocons have escape clauses in the form of standing tickets to parts unknown? Are these veritable D.B. Cooper golden-parachutes so to speak?
Why are we left to ask these questions?
We need to ask our journalists why they are obvious accomplices to Rove’s escape? They may take us for retards, but we’re going to be blood-thirsty retards. Let’s string each an every one of the traitors up while we track Rove’s run from the law without their help. Or will the press-credentials give newsmen propagandists a free pass out of the country and out of law’s reach as well?
The shift of businesses into private ownership represents the eroding stake which common Americans have in the Capitalist system. Stock holdings in most public corporations are predominantly in wealthy hands, but private corporations drop even the pretense of serving the middle class economy. Biggest ($90B) is Koch Industries which provides “beef, fuels, fertilizer and plastics.”
CONSUMER PRODUCTS:
Mars VA -Combos, Dove, M&Ms, Pedigree, Snickers, Uncle Ben’s Rice
Levi Strauss & Co CA Textile – Apparel Clothing
SC Johnson & Son WI Personal Products
Ashley Furniture Industries WI Home Furnishings & Fixtures Rich Products NY Confectioners
MGA Entertainment CA Toys & Games
Mary Kay TX Cleaning Products
Alticor MI Personal Products
Conair CT Personal Products
JohnsonDiversey WI Cleaning Products
ViewSonic CA Computer Peripherals
New Balance Athletic Shoe MA Textile – Apparel Footwear Dawn Food Products MI Confectioners to Starbucks, Krispy Kreme Roll International CA -Teleflora, Fiji Water, POM, Suterra Genmar Holdings MN Recreational Boats
Williamson-Dickie Manufacturing TX Textile – Apparel Clothing
McKee Foods TN Confectioners: Little Debbie, Sunbelt
Samsonite MA Personal Products
NewPage OH Paper & Paper Products
Bose MA Electronic Equipment
WL Gore & Associates DE Textile – Apparel Clothing
Milliken & Co SC Textile – Apparel Clothing
MTD Products OH Recreational Goods, Other
RETAILERS:
Toys “R” Us NJ Toy & Hobby Stores
Dollar General TN Discount, Variety Stores
Menard WI Home Improvement Stores
Neiman Marcus Group TX Department Stores
84 Lumber PA Home Improvement Stores
Hallmark Cards MO Entertainment – Diversified
Michaels Stores TX Specialty Retail, Other
Belk NC Department Stores
Burlington Coat Factory NJ Apparel Stores
Linens ‘n Things NJ Home Furnishing Stores
Sports Authority CO Sporting Goods Stores
Bass Pro Shops MO Sporting Goods Stores
Fry’s Electronics CA Specialty Retail, Other
Mervyns CA Department Stores
Follett IL Specialty Retail, Other
General Parts NC Auto Parts Stores
ShopKo Stores Operating WI Discount, Variety Stores
Petco Animal Supplies CA Specialty Retail, Other
Discount Tire AZ Auto Parts Stores
Guitar Center CA Music & Video Stores
Academy Sports & Outdoors TX Sporting Goods Stores
Rooms To Go FL Home Furnishing Stores
Hobby Lobby Stores OK Toy & Hobby Stores
Barnes & Noble College Booksellers NJ Specialty Retail, Other
Duane Reade NY Drug Stores
LL Bean ME Catalog & Mail Order Houses
Newegg.com CA Specialty Retail, Other
GNC PA Drug Stores
Goody’s Family Clothing TN Department Stores
Les Schwab Tire Centers OR Auto Parts Stores
Beall’s FL Department Stores
PC Richard & Son NY Specialty Retail, Other
Micro Electronics OH Specialty Retail, Other
Sutherland Lumber MO Home Improvement Stores
Boscov’s PA Department Stores
24 Hour Fitness Worldwide CA Consumer Services
Ritz Camera Centers MD Specialty Retail, Other
Schottenstein Stores OH Home Furnishing Stores
Cinemark USA TX General Entertainment
Marc Glassman OH Drug Stores
Bally Total Fitness IL Specialized Health Services
ClubCorp TX Consumer Services
Forever 21 CA Apparel Stores
BrandsMart USA FL Specialty Retail, Other
Steve and Barry’s NY Apparel Stores
HOSPITALITY:
Hilton Hotels CA Lodging
Love’s Travel Stops OK Lodging
Carlson Cos MN Lodging
Global Hyatt IL Lodging
Delaware North Cos NY Specialty Eateries
Ilitch Holdings MI Restaurants
Buffets MN Restaurants
GROCERS:
Meijer MI Grocery Stores
HE Butt Grocery TX Grocery Stores
Giant Eagle PA Grocery Stores
Cumberland Farms MA Grocery Stores
QuikTrip OK Grocery Stores
Hy-Vee IA Grocery Stores
Save Mart Supermarkets CA Grocery Stores
RaceTrac Petroleum GA Grocery Stores
Wawa PA Grocery Stores
Wegmans Food Markets NY Grocery Stores
Bi-Lo Holdings SC Grocery Stores
Stater Bros CA Grocery Stores
Sheetz PA Grocery Stores
Raley’s CA Grocery Stores
Golub NY Grocery Stores
WinCo Foods ID Grocery Stores
Schnuck Markets MO Grocery Stores
Demoulas Super Markets MA Grocery Stores
Brookshire Grocery TX Grocery Stores
Bashas’ AZ Grocery Stores
Houchens Industries KY Grocery Stores
Holiday Cos MN Grocery Stores
Marsh Supermarkets IN Grocery Stores
K-VA-T Food Stores VA Grocery Stores
Kum & Go IA Grocery Stores
Big Y Foods MA Grocery Stores
Gate Petroleum FL Grocery Stores
Foodarama Supermarkets NJ Grocery Stores
Thorntons KY Grocery Stores
Brookshire Brothers TX Grocery Stores
Minyard Food Stores TX Grocery Stores
Inserra Supermarkets NJ Grocery Stores
Stewart’s Shops NY Grocery Stores
FOOD SUPPLY:
C&S Wholesale Grocers NH Food Wholesale
US Foodservice MD Food – Major Diversified
Reyes Holdings IL Food Wholesale
Gordon Food Service MI Food Wholesale
MBM NC Food Wholesale
OSI Group IL Meat Products
Roundy’s Supermarkets WI Food Wholesale
HT Hackney TN Food Wholesale
Keystone Foods PA Meat Products
Perdue Farms MD Meat Products
Schwan Food MN Dairy Products
Eby-Brown IL Food Wholesale
Schreiber Foods WI Dairy Products
Vistar CO Food Wholesale: ROMA
Alex Lee NC Food Wholesale
Grocers Supply TX Food Wholesale
HP Hood MA Dairy Products
Services Group of America AZ Food Wholesale
Dot Foods IL Food Wholesale
Leprino Foods CO Dairy Products: mozzarella cheese
Rosen’s Diversified MN Meat Products
Ben E Keith TX Food Wholesale
Smart & Final CA Food Wholesale
Maines Paper & Food Service NY Food Wholesale
Foster Farms CA Meat Products
Koch Foods IL Meat Products
Red Chamber Group CA Food Wholesale
Shamrock Foods AZ Food Wholesale
ContiGroup Cos NY Meat Products
Pinnacle Foods NJ Food – Major Diversified
Great Lakes Cheese OH Dairy Products
GSC Enterprises TX Food Wholesale
Michael Foods MN Dairy Products
Bozzuto’s CT Food Wholesale
Goya Foods NJ Food – Major Diversified
Wells’ Dairy IA Dairy Products
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Cargill MN Farm Products
Transammonia NY Agricultural Chemicals
Murdock Holding Company CA Farm Products
DeBruce Grain MO Farm Products
Scoular NE Farm Products
JR Simplot ID Farm Products
Golden State Foods CA Farm Products
Dunavant Enterprises TN Farm Products
Bartlett & Co MO Farm Products
DRINK:
Southern Wine & Spirits FL Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
Charmer Sunbelt Group NY Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
Republic National Distributing Company TX Wineries & Distillers
Glazer’s Wholesale Drug TX Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
E&J Gallo Winery CA Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
Young’s Market CA Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
Honickman Affiliates NJ Beverages – Soft Drinks
Wirtz IL Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
Topa Equities CA Beverages – Wineries & Distillers
HEALTH:
US Oncology TX Hospitals
Vanguard Health Systems TN Hospitals
Quintiles Transnational NC Medical Laboratories & Research
Golden Living AR Home Health Care
Medline Industries IL Medical Instruments & Supplies
Bausch & Lomb NY Medical Appliances & Equipment
Biomet IN Medical Instruments & Supplies
Iasis Healthcare TN Hospitals
Life Care Centers of America TN Long-Term Care Facilities
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Catalent Pharma Solutions NJ Medical Instruments & Supplies
Ardent Health Services TN Hospitals
FHC Health Systems VA Specialized Health Services
Concentra Operating TX Specialized Health Services
Gateway Health Plan PA Health Care Plans
SavaSeniorCare GA Long-Term Care Facilities
TeamHealth TN Medical Practitioners
Cook Group IN Medical Instruments & Supplies
MEDIA:
Cox Enterprises GA Entertainment – Diversified
Advance Publications NY Publishing – Newspapers
Bloomberg NY Information & Delivery Services
Hearst NY Publishing – Newspapers
International Data Group MA Publishing – Periodicals
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Quad/Graphics WI Publishing – Periodicals
Ebsco Industries AL Publishing – Periodicals
Landmark Communications VA Publishing – Newspapers
Taylor MN Publishing – Periodicals
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer CA General Entertainment
MediaNews Group CO Newspapers: Denver Post, Detroit News
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GMAC Financial Services MI Mortgage Investment
Fidelity Investments MA Asset Management
Capital Group Cos CA Asset Management
Edward Jones MO Investment Brokerage – National
LPL Financial Services CA Investment Brokerage – National
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Chrysler MI Auto Manufacturers
Gulf States Toyota TX Auto Manufacturers – Major
JM Family Enterprises FL Auto Manufacturers
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Interstate Battery Systems of America TX Auto Parts
KAR Holdings IN Auto Dealerships
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PricewaterhouseCoopers NY Business Services
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First Data CO Business Services
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Pro-Build Holdings CO Building Materials Wholesale
Kohler WI General Building Materials
Clark Enterprises MD General Contractors
JF Shea CA Residential Construction
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NTK Holdings RI General Building Materials
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Bradco Supply NJ Building Materials Wholesale
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Hoffman OR General Contractors
DPR Construction CA General Contractors
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Weitz IA General Contractors
Mercedes Homes FL Residential Construction
Rooney Holdings FL General Contractors
Associated Materials OH General Building Materials
Beaulieu of America Group GA Home Furnishings & Fixtures
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Kimball Hill IL Residential Construction
Drees Co KY Residential Construction
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MWH CO General Contractors
Pacific Coast Building Products CA General Building Materials
WOOD:
Boise Cascade ID Lumber, Wood Production
Sierra Pacific Industries CA Lumber, Wood Production
North Pacific Group OR Lumber, Wood Production
Roseburg Forest Products OR Lumber, Wood Production
Columbia Forest Prods OR Lumber, Wood Production
Hampton Affiliates OR Lumber, Wood Production
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SemGroup OK Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
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TransMontaigne CO Oil & Gas Pipelines
Drummond AL Nonmetallic Mineral Mining
Sinclair Oil UT Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
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Oxbow FL Nonmetallic Mineral Mining
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Hunt Consolidated/Hunt Oil TX Oil & Gas Drilling & Exploration
Red Man Pipe & Supply OK Oil & Gas Equipment & Services
Dresser TX Oil & Gas Equipment & Services
Warren Equities RI Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
Merit Energy TX Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
Arctic Slope Regional AK Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
US Oil WI Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing
Camac International TX Oil & Gas Drilling & Exploration
UTILITIES:
Energy Future Holdings TX Electric Utilities
Tenaska Energy NE Diversified Utilities
CONGLOMERATES: Platinum Equity CA -USRobotics
Sammons Enterprises TX -Midland National Life Insurance, Briggs
Ingram Industries TN
Berwind PA -Elmers Glue Petters Group Worldwide MN
Washington Cos MT -mining, rail, marine, equip
ELECTRONIC:
CDW IL Computer Based Systems
Freescale Semiconductor TX Semiconductor – Specialized
Avaya NJ Communication Equipment
Graybar Electric MO Electronics Wholesale
Kingston Technology CA Semiconductor- Memory Chips
Brightstar FL Communication Equipment
World Wide Technology MO Computers Wholesale
Infor GA Computer Based Systems
INDUSTRIAL:
Marmon Group IL Industrial Equipment & Components
Southwire GA Industrial Equipment & Components
Aleris International OH Metal Fabrication
Amsted Industries IL Diversified Machinery
O’Neal Steel AL Steel & Iron
Heico Cos IL Industrial Equipment & Components
Renco Group NY Steel & Iron
Metals USA TX Metal Fabrication
McWane AL Industrial Equipment & Components
McJunkin WV Industrial Equipment & Components
Electro-Motive Diesel IL Industrial Equipment & Components
Crown Equipment OH Industrial Equipment & Components
Rexnord WI Industrial Equipment & Components
Tang Industries NV Metal Fabrication
Soave Enterprises MI Steel & Iron
Indalex IL Aluminum
Euramax International GA Metal Fabrication
Advanced Drainage Systems OH Industrial Equipment & Components
Goss International IL Industrial Equipment & Components
Swagelok OH Industrial Equipment & Components
Utility Trailer Manufacturing CA Industrial Equipment & Components
CHEMICAL:
Koch Industries KS Chemicals – Major Diversified
Hexion Specialty Chemicals OH Specialty Chemicals
InterTech Group SC Synthetics
Berry Plastics IN Rubber & Plastics
JM Huber NJ Specialty Chemicals
Carpenter VA Synthetics
Wilbur-Ellis CA Agricultural Chemicals
International Specialty Products NJ Specialty Chemicals
Sigma Plastics Group NJ Synthetics
ICC Industries NY Specialty Chemicals
Nypro MA Rubber & Plastics
PAPER:
Central National-Gottesman NY Paper & Paper Products
Verso Paper TN Paper & Paper Products
The Kraft Group MA Paper & Paper Products
Gould Paper NY Paper & Paper Products
Appleton Papers WI Paper & Paper Products
TRANSPORTATION:
Unisource Worldwide GA Packaging & Containers
Schneider National WI Trucking
Swift Transportation AZ Trucks & Other Vehicles
Graham Packaging Holdings PA Packaging & Containers
Solo Cup IL Packaging & Containers
UniGroup MO Trucking
Altivity Packaging IL Packaging & Containers
SSA Marine WA Shipping
Dart Container MI Packaging & Containers
Plastipak Holdings MI Packaging & Containers
Crowley Maritime FL Shipping
Estes Express Lines VA Trucking
Global Aero Logistics IN Air Services, Other
Printpack GA Packaging & Containers
Pliant IL Packaging & Containers
Crete Carrier NE Trucking
WHOLESALE:
Kinray NY Drugs Wholesale
Consolidated Elec Distributors CA Wholesale, Other
VWR International PA Wholesale, Other
Anderson Cos AL Wholesale, Other
Quality King Distributors NY Drugs Wholesale
Software House Intl NJ Electronics Wholesale
Baker & Taylor NC Wholesale, Other
JM Smith SC Drugs Wholesale
D&H Distributing PA Computers Wholesale
Ma Labs CA Electronics Wholesale
Apex Oil MO Wholesale, Other
ASI CA Computers Wholesale
Orgill TN Wholesale, Other
MISC. SERVICES:
Enterprise Rent-A-Car MO Rental & Leasing Services
Frank Consolidated Enterprises IL Rental & Leasing Services
McKinsey & Co NY Research Services
Travelport NJ Consumer Services
HealthMarkets TX Insurance Brokers
West Corp NE Diversified Communication Services
Boston Consulting Group MA Research Services
Knowledge Learning OR Education & Training Services
Maritz MO Research Services
Education Management PA Education & Training Services
Laureate Education MD Education & Training Services
MISC:
JD Heiskell & Co CA NA
Vought Aircraft Industries TX Aerospace/Defense – Major Diversified
Ash Grove Cement KS NA
Deseret Management UT NA
Safety-Kleen Systems TX Waste Management
They’re still going at it at the Gazette, readers invective on the Feb 2 Saint Patrick’s Day parade article have kept it among the top commented stories, although you’d hardly recognize the subject.
It’s still plenty hurtful and doesn’t represent the public nor the sentiment of support I get almost daily.
In the golden days of the not long ago World Wide Web, going back to the computer Bulletin Board Services to which you could direct your modem, chat rooms used to be private. Or you could elect to take your chat private, to spare yourself the din of the newcomers, or spare everyone the subtext for which they might have no context. The blog comment format affords no similar filter.
Of course, those were also the days before spam, when computer literacy was buoyed by the fact that only well-intended people knew how to use them, or even had the curiosity to try.
I try to avoid waiting room comment areas because what’s said is so broad, and usually so bombastic as everyone tries to be the center of attention, that it’s easy to feel hurt if you lose sight that these are people in their bathrobes, in their Barca-loungers, covered in cat dander. Not your typical Gazette readers I should hope, but sufficiently uncouth to deter anyone else from even venturing to the keyboard. Hopefully someone in PR can figure out how not to represent our city by a show of our bottom-scratchers.
The capitalists system is in meltdown. The apologist candidates won’t tell us what the real problems are because they were asleep at the wheel and have voted in support of and taken part in the corrupt capitalist system. They’re all millionaires!!!! It’s time to start a new economy and new currency, end war, cut the military budget to 1/4 of what it is and dismantle the Fed. …and the parasitical Stock Market gambling casino that robs those who produce goods and services of their bounty.
Or so the adage goes. NPR referred to it as a cliche, and canvassed the foreign press for regional varients. The news being, apparently, that the American economy hiccuped or other such trifle.
I cannot help thinking of Chekhov’s The Death of a Government Official,
adapted for the stage as The Sneeze.
NPR went on:“When the US sneezes, Shanghai catches a cold.” A subset. “When America sneezes, Britain catches a cold.” Mimicry. “When America sneezes, things get feverish in South Africa.” Credited for imagination. The trivialization continued, from: “When America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold” to “When America sneezes, does the world still catch a cold?” Then NPR asked a financial skeptic to assess the veracity of this cliche. She explained that a sneeze had a generally small radius of effect, and that a handshake was more likely to spread a cold. She was on the right track, wasn’t she? A sneeze is but a trifle.
The net effect of course, was to reiterate, reinforced through repetition, that America has sneezed, and it’s up to others to mind their health. It was a sneeze, that’s all. The light headed, somewhat hazy feeling you are experiencing? Just a sneeze. You’re not faint, you’re not about to collapse into an indefinite convalescence with pneumonia.
When America is bed bound with consumption, there’s no one unaffected to bring her chicken soup. That’s where the medicinal analogy ends. When our economy is out for the count, competitors have their arms raised in the air, ready for the next comer, looking for the next Golden Goose. Business is war. Sun Tsu’s Art of War is after all shelved under Business. If this were a child’s game, it would be King of the Hill, not Doctor.
UPDATE: The Gazette article is still among the top commented.
Here’s a string of the initial comments, in chronological order:
hmmmmm wrote:
Well this proves that if you break the law, and they did, and complain and whine enough then you can get off. Very disappointed in our DA on this one. quote “When you consider dragging an old woman across the street and not lifting her up, it’s really hard to see how that’s doing nothing wrong,” Verlo said. end quote. When this “old woman” refuses to get up and follow police orders, Yes they did nothing wrong. It’s called the law, and they broke it.
11/28/2007 7:44 PM MST on Gazette.com
csaction wrote:
No part of this trial was ever in the public’s interest and the city prosecutors were the last to see that. Some of the police used excessive force and that ruined their case. The parade rules weren’t applied to everyone equally, and that ruined their case. You aren’t guilty of obstructing the street when the police throw you down in the street. Explaining that you have a permit to march, just like the year before, is NOT failure to disperse. Allowing every politico in town to make a political statement EXCEPT those with a message of peace, is NOT equal protection under the law.
The strangest part of the city’s position, other than the obvious lame claim that they could get a conviction but decided not to, is Ms. Kelly’s apparent distrust of the legal system: “everything the police did was justified and there was probable cause for an arrest, but getting a conviction is another story”.
It is NOT another story IF the police did nothing wrong and there WAS probable cause for an arrest, and that’s ALL been decided by a jury of their peers when they couldn’t prove their case to 6 people in this town.
Is she suggesting that the jury system is wrong or that we, the people, are too stupid to see that the police and city are always right, no matter what they do? Does she think we can’t sit on a jury and decide the ruling based on the evidence, and get it right? The jury already got it right and the city wanted to intimidate the remaining 2 people with the threat of a trial, until the last minute, to stop them from suing for the police brutality, already proven to a jury.
11/28/2007 7:49 PM MST on Gazette.com
mananamaria wrote:
Apparently a jury couldn’t agree anyone broke the law in the first place. As far as I can tell, the threat to file charges against Verlo and Fineron, who both may or may no longer have pending lawsuits against the city and then dropping those is pretty telling. Besides did our finest not learn appropriat compliance tools that avoid the spectecals of dragging old women across a street and flagrantly threateniing people with tasers?
11/28/2007 8:03 PM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
CS, correction–they had a permit to march in a parade, not to interrupt the parade with a demonstration. In addition, Kelly is stating that another trial would be a waste of resources because the outcome would be the same…there is no insuation here.
11/28/2007 8:04 PM MST on Gazette.com
back2colorado4go wrote:
csaction, you have lost ALL credibility on these boards! And Manawhatever, you do not follow ANY of the facts about this. JWSTrue has it right. These people broke the law, and most people I know of agree that these people needed to be taught that what they did in public was a disgrace! The police PICKED THEM OFF OF THE STREET, and with resistance these people ended up hurting themselves! They are deceptive by lying for the permit and needed to be removed. No one, especially the children there to see the parade, needed to be subjected to these adults acting unruly and not listening to the police! You can protest many other ways without this sick little show! And I agree with the DA in one way though. For the little satisfaction we (the public) would get in prosecuting these people, it is not worth the cost and the publicity it would give these pathetic people in the process! And yes, juries are full of creepy people that let off murderers every day, so it is not so hard to see one that can’t decide this one! These people were LUCKY it was the police that dragged them from the streets after hearing how ticked some parade watchers were at these people when this happened! Way to teach our kids!!!
11/28/2007 8:21 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (4)
jwstrue wrote:
back2colorado4go, thanks for the support. Now we sit back and wait for jtrione to chime in…sometimes I think CS and jtrione are one in the same, maybe??
11/28/2007 8:50 PM MST on Gazette.com
tonytee wrote:
hey post person hummmmmm cops broke the law many times and have not been charged, people sometimes who break the law in history end up being heroes, sometimes the letter of the law is not always correct and golden, sometimes to make a difference in life you must break the law to make the world a better place to live and not not let the law become too powerful in trying to silence free speech.
11/28/2007 8:52 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (2)
pc12784 wrote:
CSaction, with the possibility of people like you in the jury pool, it is entirely reasonable to think that the jury would be too stupid to see that the police and city are right in this case. Your statement about excessive force still baffle me. If you don’t want to be dragged off the street by the police, MOVE when officers give you a lawful order to do so. It’s really quite simple. But JWS and back2colorado pretty much discredited everything you said in this thread anyway, so I rest my case.
11/28/2007 9:18 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (4)
lexiii wrote:
I wish they’d have gone ahead and prosecuted, but the county is trying to save money, and they are basically focusing on more important crimes, I think, which is a good thing.
However, I am not on the side of the protesters here, if there weren’t more important cases that need attention, I’d be screaming and hollering myself right now, but our jails are already over filled and we need the room for more violent offenders.
Even though they’re not going to be prosecuted, the stupid protesters still look stupid in the eyes of the public, that opinion will not change.
11/28/2007 9:37 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (4)
pastor wrote:
one thing I have learned about csaction is he is right and everyone else is wrong. Have anyone every read where he admitted he was wrong and said he was sorry. In his world the peace protest are always right and can do no wrong.
Here is an example of his world view “One more point: look at the list of issues that made the gazette change this blog. ALL rightwing issues. All rightwing hate speech. Vile, putrid, racist, sexist, Fox Noise, Rush Limpboy, dittohead, FotF issues. NONE leftwing.” ”
Mr. Rust, I see you like your peace activists stupid, brain addled, stoned hippies, with no fight in them, passively accepting any abuse from the enemies of the state. Or perhaps you like the theological activists looking for another martyrdom opportunity and willing to help any enemy nail them to the cross. Or perhaps activists that are just too stupid to see hypocrisy in the national (and local) theocracy proponents, or the threat that ALL theocrats represent to the peaceful majority. Sorry to disappoint. (not)” ” The theocratic party that wants to turn this nation into a theocracy, and is the Christian equivalent of an Islamic Republic, are who get criticized, along with the hypocrite, hate monger, adulterer, homophobe, foot tapping bathroom boys, and televangelist funditards. It has nothing to do with the religion and peaceful, loving followers of the Prince of Peace. It has to do with those straying from the message as much as the other Taliban, who want to turn back the clock on progress to created a biblical theocracy. It has to do with those that want to legislate “throwing the first stone”, battling those that want to legislate “thou shalt NOT throw the first stone”. The concept of the protection of targeted groups, is the application of that principle and those against it are NOT Christian, because it is the principle of their lord. BTW, preacher, I won’t cut you as much slack as the other guy. You know exactly what “Christian” Taliban means, you just defend them. I’ve explained this before and will not again.” all of these quotes are from him. FOR SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES CHRISTIAN ARE LIKE THE TALIBAN, WILL ALWAYS DEFEND HIS PEOPLE WHEN THERE ARE WRONG. So I am sure he will blame Christian for his friends getting in trouble, and that all of this is to silence his friends message.
11/28/2007 9:39 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
on the issues of the protester, they now know, if they disobey the police, they can get away with it by yell, that it is all the police fault. An make sure people like csaction spread their lies on line and in the newspaper, this is the normal blame the cops for our behavior.
11/28/2007 9:45 PM MST on Gazette.com
101abn wrote:
Once again, lazy DAs. I rest my case. Prosecuting the prostestors would probably cut in to the time they spend plea bargaining away other cases…
11/28/2007 10:10 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (2)
101abn wrote:
Neva Nolan. Nearly a HUNDRED COUNTS PLEA BARGAINED DOWN TO *TWO*. Did you watch the Channel 11 report on the clown with over a HALF DOZEN DUIs – INCLUDING KILLING A MAN – WHO LOST HIS DRIVER’S LICENSE, LEFT COURT, DROVE TO A LIQUOR STORE AND BOUGHT A BOTTLE OF BOOZE??? ALL FILMED AND CONFIRMED BY CHANNEL 11 NEWS CREWS. Our DAs are a BAD JOKE!
11/28/2007 10:26 PM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (3)
tonytee wrote:
actually lexiii i do not see the protesters as stupid in the eyes of the public, being one that is in the public i commend them for standing up for what they beleived in and taking it as far as they did, in this country too few people are sheep and will not step out and stand for what they beleive in that is why our country is in the dilemma it is in currently with politicians and fiancially, maybe more people need to step out of the box for what they beleive in instead of letting senior citizens do it for us, but maybe that is the only generation that has any guts left to stand up for something.
11/28/2007 11:50 PM MST
just1voice wrote:
Tony I think you are way off base on that one. Its not that people arent willing to stand up for what they believe in or that they are sheep following the flock. The majority of them do it WITHIN the limits of the law so it doesnt make headlines like these clowns did. Have you gone out and asked the “public” their opinion on what these people did? I have and as Lexi said, they look stupid and will continue to think they are stupid even though they wont be punished for it.
Besides, I can think of several other ways to punish a business owner besides sending him to jail so that is something the public needs to consider.
11/29/2007 7:10 AM MST on Gazette.com
skiracer wrote:
Tony – not sure exactly how you are in the public eye as I have never heard of you outside these boards and can’t find any information on basic internet searches. Someone mentioned on another thread you ran for a public office and lost. With the skewwed view points you have shown throughout the threads on this website and the apparent lack of a marketing plan I can see why.
Maybe the senior citizens in these case were convinced/brainwashed in to thinking they were standing up for a good cause. Heck, my grandmother voted for Clinton the first time around because she thought he was handsome and someone came around to her nursing home and told everyone there what a great guy he was and how his moral standards would help improve their lives in the retirement community.
The problem with what they did is that they lied their way into the protest (privately funded and run) and then refused to leave when organizers asked them to and then police asked them to. Arguing that you have a permit is not leaving. Step to the side of the road and then show your permit. But since it was privately run it doesn’t matter. Your permit can be revoked at anytime at the organizer’s discretion.
As far dragging rather than carrying an old lady across the street. I am going to guess that she was pushing 200 lbs if not more. Has anyone here tried to carry a oddly shaped, limp sack of potatoes weighing this much before. Now add some squirming into the equation and you can see why they dragged this person off the straight. Besides, I would be willing to bet that should she have been carried off we would hear about her injuring either her arms or her ribs.
11/29/2007 7:38 AM MST on Gazette.com
skiracer wrote:
And regardless of the cost, the DA should be prosecuting those who break the law. The problem with our legal system is not that too many people are getting 2nd chances, it’s that too many people never even have to plea bargain or go to court because of lazy prosecutors.
The DA just lost my vote when up for re-election. If you didn’t have enough evidence say so, but to say that you are backing out because you don’t have faith in the system you are supposed to uphold on behalf of the people is a bunch of BS.
11/29/2007 7:41 AM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (1)
pastor wrote:
The next’s round of the peace protester hand book is to bring a lawsuit against the city and police for false arrest. I hope that everyone who hand entry for parade take notice and when this group try to entry next time, they make it clear to them no anti-war message permitted in the parade. If you bring in you anti-war or peace message (joke because they seem to end up in some type of fight with someone) you will be removed. This will stop them from cause trouble again.
11/29/2007 7:57 AM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
I went to war to push peace and democracy on other nations. In this nation, or atleast in this city peace is considered hate speach. This city had no case, thats why they lost and are hanging their heads in defeat.
11/29/2007 7:57 AM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
This city is changing, just drive on Fort Carson one day, count how many anti-war, anti-Bush stickers you see on people’s cars. It will shock you. But you people on this blog will probably just call those troops “phoney soldiers” or “anti-americans” or “unpatriotic”. We appreciate that. Thanks for the support. Go when Physical Training (PT) ends at 8:30am, you’ll see these troops in their cars where their PT uniform with with what you people call “propaganda” on their car. I love an America where our troops have the right to free speach, which you call “hate speach”.
11/29/2007 8:03 AM MST on Gazette.com
erniezippreplat wrote:
Break the law get away scott free with the Colorado Springs DA. Whoever run against the current DA next time around gets the five votes in my family
11/29/2007 8:08 AM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (1)
lexiii wrote:
iraqwarvet, throwing yourself on the pavement during a family event isn’t speech, and it certainly isn’t peace.
If idiots want to stand up for peace, they need to be peaceable about it.
These protesters were no more peaceful than anyone else.
tonytee, the protesters were stupid. They acted like a bunch of tantruming toddlers. Grown men and women throwing themselves down like three year olds in front of little children, no less, because they were asked to leave and they didn’t want to leave.
Not only was that against their own message of peace, it was a bad example for the children concerning adult behavior, and it was completely inappropriate in the first place.
A family event is no place for a war protest, these selfish minded brainless old farts who think they’re still in the sixties need to grow up and find a more appropriate means of communication.
How can they send a message of peace when they, themselves, are not being peaceful?
11/29/2007 8:10 AM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (1)
smackermack wrote:
GUYS your anger is in the wrong place!! It is the CITY ATTORNEY – not the DA who decided this!!! Read the headline and the first Paragraph of the article!!!
11/29/2007 8:55 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
No one want to silence the peace protesters right to speak, but we believe that there is a time and place for it. An most people believe that the St. Patrick’s Day parade was not the right time and place. Most people also seem to believe that if a cop asked you move you move you do not act like a baby. But I also must remind everyone that the peace protesters hand book, when the police ask you to move you drop an make a scene, so that it is caught on film, the reason is so you can make the police look like the bad guy.
Iragwarvet I have a question for you since you agree with the anti-war groups. Is it ok to block soldier return from the war? Is it ok to delay the soldier meeting with their family? Is it ok to destroy railroad tracks and stop the return of the military equipment from the war?
11/29/2007 8:56 AM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
TONYTEE, taking a stand or speaking out for what you believe in is one thing. Causing a disturbance during a public family event is quite another.
2 other bits:
– This country is in dilemma (according to you) because of corrupt politicians…
– This country is in dilemma (according to you) because of imminent recession…
Neither has anything to do with “stepping out or standing for”.
You wouldn’t happen to be one of the individuals who ran for mayor last term, would you?
11/29/2007 9:02 AM MST on Gazette.com
rambone wrote:
pastor wrote: “No one want to silence the peace protesters right to speak, but we believe that there is a time and place for it. An most people believe that the St. Patrick’s Day parade was not the right time and place.”
Oh, but it was the right time and place for an old pickup to drive in the parade with juveniles in the back, lifting kegs, acting like idiots?
Was it the right time and place for the police to scare the living daylights out of young children as they drug that poor old lady across the street by the back of her shirt?
Were you even there pastor? I was, and it was terrible that these fine police had to act like they were imposing martial law.
11/29/2007 9:11 AM MST on Gazette.com
davidb wrote:
Eric Verlo and Elizabeth Fineron should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. According to their own statements, they intentionally and premeditatedly challenged the police that day. Attorney Kelly, you do NOT speak for the public on this one. Do your job!
11/29/2007 9:20 AM MST on Gazette.com
rambone wrote:
lexiii wrote: “These protesters were no more peaceful than anyone else.”
Were you there lexiii? Or its this just another story you want to weigh in on? I watched the whole thing, from the moment they walked out of Acatia Park, to when they got beat down 1 block away. Their signs were just peace symbols, they were not yelling into the crowd. One more thing, that pig that drug that lady across the street is lucky to be walking on two legs today. Pull off that act in front of my kids is enough to get me sent to prison.
11/29/2007 9:20 AM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
Iraqwarvet, actually if any one in a position of authority sees an active duty soldier driving around with this propaganda displayed on his/her POV–they will more than likely be ordered to remove it and potentially face administrative action.
The Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits any type of slander against the Commander-in-Chief–in any form or fashion. While military members may disagree with the policies and procedures set forth by the Commander-in-Chief, they are prohibited by law from open criticism of those policies/procedures or the CIC himself.
Yes, military members can exercise freedom of speech–but only accompanied by certain restrictions as outlined in the UCMJ.
11/29/2007 9:22 AM MST on Gazette.com
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pastor wrote:
So it is ok for these people to act the way they did. So again it is the police fault for doing their job, an the protester are not responsibility for their actions. So when is it ok for the police to move someone who does not listen?
11/29/2007 9:27 AM MST on Gazette.com
lwirbel wrote:
Lexii, you still aren’t describing this event accurately. Some people, like the AIM Indians at Columbus Day in Denver, choose to get arrested and commit civil disobedience by symbolically blockading an event. Verlo and Fineron were parade participants who the parade marshall decided, after the fact, he didn’t want in the parade, who were removed from the parade. The courts have a very mixed record on the right of a parade organizer to set rules, particularly in an ex post facto way. St Patricks Day organizers in Boston and elsewhere have some limited rights to exclude in advance gay and lesbian marchers, but once they’re in a parade, you have only limited rights to take them out. What’s also relevant here is what the courts have said about Apple Computer’s right to define who is a journalist. The company wants to exclude some people in advance because it says, “they’re only bloggers.” The courts say, no, Apple, even if it’s your press conference, you do not have the right to decide who is a legit participant and who is not. The St. Paddy’s Day organizer was really bordering on the edge of legality when he decided to remove folks with peace shirts after allowing Bookman in (and like Rambone said, they weren’t yelling, just marching).
11/29/2007 9:31 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Rambone if the police tell you to move out of the way, you listen and sort out the problem once you are off the street. You do not act like a little child. Rambone read your past posting you are some one who has a problem with Authorize and police. I was not there but people I know and trust were there an witness the whole thing from start to finished. They witness the police asking them to leave and witness the people not listen to the police officers.
11/29/2007 9:35 AM MST on Gazette.com
skiracer wrote:
Smackermack – My bad on the City Attorney vs the DA. Guess I heard DA used and skipped over the first few lines of the article on my reread after reading other comments. Regardless, the DA’s office should still be looking at this as Colorado Springs is in El Paso County, which is covered in the area he is responsible for. At a minimum a better reason/story/lie needs to be provided to the people of the city regarding why these charges were actually dropped. Saying you have evidence to convict but we are not going to is the same as saying we will chose which laws we are going to enforce.
As for the City Attorney (appointed by our wonderful all knowing and responsible City Council). You should be fired for either lying in your statements to the Gazette or for not upholding the law regardless of cost. If you have enough evidence a crime was committed and the police were correct in their actions you owe it to those of us who follow the law to uphold it as well as to the police officers who just had their name dragged through the mud because you are either a liar or lazy.
11/29/2007 9:36 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Lwirbel my problem is how they acted once they were told by the police to leave. I do not agree with the message they were bring in the St. Patrick’s Day parade but that is my opion. I feel that there is a time and place for that message and this to me was not the right place. With that said, I still feel they were in the wrong once the police ask them to move out of the way. They had to two choices 1. to move out of the way and sort the mess out. 2. Do not listen to the police and risk getting in trouble. The choices was up to them.
11/29/2007 9:47 AM MST on Gazette.com
justanothervet wrote:
That is right . Every time the police or any authority figure tells you to do something than do it. No protesting allowed. No thinking allowed. Vote Republican.
BTW you can send your Tea Tax to the Queen care of the United Kingdom.
11/29/2007 9:47 AM MST on Gazette.com
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lwirbel wrote:
That’s the main difference between you and me. If there was a huge accident or similar crisis and the police were getting everyone to move, I’d high-tail it. If the police were asking me to do something that was clearly a violation of my rights, I would challenge them and ask for their badge number. Never kowtow to someone simply because they are in uniform.
11/29/2007 9:54 AM MST on Gazette.com
duncan wrote:
lwirbel, from your comments I can only conclude that you had no issue with the Valedictorian from Lewis Palmer giving her speech about faith AFTER deliberately misleading the event organizers about her intentions. Is that correct? Or are you blocking that piece of evidence out to make your case? I guess lies and deceit in the name of a “cause” are complete justification to getting ones message across.
rambone, your internet tough guy act is tired. By your own admission since you watched the whole thing you had your chance with “that pig” and you did nothing. I doubt there would have been any change if your kids were there or not. It sounds like you could have used it as an example to your kids of what not to do when they grow up.
11/29/2007 9:57 AM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (1)
rambone wrote:
Selective discipline? I had three short paragraphs to you. You chose to only comment on some short sighted belief that the police are the rule makers. These peace activist had the permits to be in that parade.
Act the way they did? You admit you were not there. Last I remember, he told me/she told me wasn’t admitted in a court of law. So why are you even making assumptions?
11/29/2007 10:00 AM MST on Gazette.com
lwirbel wrote:
Duncan, I actually know Erica from Lewis-Palmer and I have mixed emotions about it, I don’t think her case will stand up in court because of those deceptions, though her intention was partially admirable. I think this issue will stand up in a civil-suit court because the marchers were NOT engaged in deception. Bookman has always been an activist bookstore, and no great deception is involved in putting on green T-shirts. What about the Boston parade, if a bookstore known to be lesbian applied to the Catholic group to march, would it be deceptive to somehow have a lesbian sign on that float? I would say no.
11/29/2007 10:05 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Iwirbel I have no problem with your statement “I would challenge them and ask for their badge number. Never kowtow to someone simply because they are in uniform.” But can you not do this by getting out of the way of everyone else, so that you are not causing a delay in the parade? by doing this are you not listen to the police and showing respect to them and everyone else.
11/29/2007 10:06 AM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
Quick question to someone in the know. What reason did the protesters use to apply for a permit under a business name that had nothing to do with their organization? Or is their organization called The Bookman?
11/29/2007 10:11 AM MST on Gazette.com
obxman wrote:
if the d.a.[could mean anything]had to pay for legal expenses in a failed prosecution,half these jokers would be out of a job.if civilians sue each other without merit,the losing party can be held liable for legal fees…..why not the government?!they don’t have to be right when they arrest you….you just have to be able to afford justice.
11/29/2007 10:33 AM MST
jwstrue wrote:
Come on Rambone…that’s like saying because airplanes crash, I have no respect for pilots and will never fly an airplane…you sound pretty libertarian to me. Perhaps you should relocate to one of those compounds in Montana or Utah. Be careful, you may need these guys some day…
lwirbel, most folks with common sense would not challenge authority while in the midst of a direct order–most folks would follow the appropriate complaint or challenge process. Sounds like you have the same problem as the protesters–there is a time and place for everything. When you are given instruction by a police officer–this is not the time to argue or challenge unless your desire is to be incarcerated. Yes, there are exceptions–but judgement and good sense is everything…
11/29/2007 10:35 AM MST on Gazette.com
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lwirbel wrote:
Jwstrue, Eric has had The Bookman in the parade (and MLK parade, etc.) for several years’ running, usually has a sign about peace on the van, etc. He said something to J&P members a couple days beforehand, saying “Anyone want to be with the float?” Before that time, none of the peace groups had even thought about applying for the parade, whether or not they’d be allowed. The Justice and Peace Commission often has a float in the Christmas parade every year, allowed by the sponsors, usually with an alternative-energy theme, but no one ever thought of applying for some of these other parades.
11/29/2007 10:39 AM MST on Gazette.com
just1voice wrote:
Rambone, ignorance is bliss isnt? Why dont you check the app requirements for applying to be a cop before opening your mouth and making yourself look like more of an idiot. As for the State Trooper, he sure as anything could have made your day a whole lot worse by holding you and calling social services to come and collect your child. Dont think he had the right? Go and find out. Then you could sit here and complain about how he held you againt your will, kidnapped your child and made you look like even worse of a father than you probably are.
11/29/2007 10:41 AM MST on Gazette.com
Recommend (1)
jwstrue wrote:
Come on Rambone…that’s like saying because airplanes crash I have no respect for pilots and will never fly…you sound pretty libertarian to me. Perhaps you should relocate to a compound in Montana or Utah. Be careful, you may need these guys some day.
lwirbel, you may have the same problem as the protesters. There is a time and place for everything. Most folks, when instructed by a police officer to take some action, would comply and complain or challenge later. The only thing you will accomplish by direct rebellion is most likely incarceration. True, there are exceptions, but good sense and judgement apply here…
11/29/2007 10:44 AM MST on Gazette.com
just1voice wrote:
Here is the sad part of all of this. Hopefully everyone will live and learn. I guarentee you the parade organizer is amending his rules and regs and next he will not have this problem. I would imagine EVERY parade orgainizer is doing that so it is very unlikely that this “message of peace” they wanted to get out will not be seen again at any function like this. Why would you want someone hell bent on causing problems in your show anyway?
11/29/2007 10:44 AM MST on Gazette.com
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jwstrue wrote:
…sorry, didn’t mean to repeat myself–couldn’t see the first comments
11/29/2007 10:46 AM MST on Gazette.com
jtrione wrote:
(laughing) Some of these comments get so hilarious. Makes for entertaining reading. And, just to clarify JWS, CSAction and I are two different people. I would think our approaches to various topics and our facility with the language would distinguish us in several ways, but, alas, not clear enough.
I cannot comment definitively on the actions that day, as truthfully, I was not there. I do, however, know that the sentiment at the time which drove and continues to drive this debate was that from the early moments of the war, Colorado Springs and our illustrious police department were forever enshrined in history as “Thugs of Intolerance”. We, the citizenry, witnessed the teargassing of peaceful protesters early on in 2003 and made the nightly news across the country for same.
So, I could see why the perception, real or not, existed during this parade event. The message which seemed to come through loud and clear from city government and the police force was “How DARE you liberal freaks question the certitude of our celestially ordained Bush administration and its actions in the world ? We will use EVERY means legal and illegal to keep you silenced.” So, no, all the comments below that those on the right welcome free speech are, frankly, prevarication. Conservatives during this period fell into a mindset that they could shout down or silence any dissent as they claimed to have higher moral authority, e.g. Bill O’Reilly’s infuriating habit of cutting off the microphone of those who disagree. The Gazette’s infuriating habit of editing AP news stories during that time to remove any possible anti-war opinions.
Those who are intellectually HONEST cannot dispute that such a pervasive mentality existed in this country for the last six years. Given that framework, it is not difficult at all to see the anguish from the left at a system which tried strenuously to silence dissent. And, for those on the right who are unable, for a moment, to see the frustration from the left, then, I’m sorry, but you would have to be CLUELESS to forget the Cheney-isms where he called into question the patriotism of those who dared to dissent.
Dunno, gang, hopefully we’re moving in the right direction. Remember, the bulk of the blame for the lack of unanimity toward the war effort falls squarely at the feet of the Loser in Chief who was unable to make a cogent case for military action and failed miserably at being a leader. A “leader” is able to rally people to his cause, not just browbeat them into obeisance. So, yes, maybe these protesters broke the law. I haven’t a clue. But, if they did, don’t they answer to a higher moral authority than some law designed to stifle protests of the left ? I think so. jtrione@mac.com
11/29/2007 10:59 AM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
Thanks Jim for the clarification. I apologize, I was being sarcastic. For those who aren’t familiar, the distinction could be difficult because you both speak in dissertational formats and CS usually follows in support of your views…
Your comments are sometimes pretty hilarious as well…especially when the disdain for Christianity and the liberal arrogance shines through–all in good fun though.
11/29/2007 11:14 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Hey Jim, how are you today, I would never confuse you with csaction (I know everything) you have always been respectful to me and other. I think you are off base here on this issue. I for one question those in leadership who are against the war,why? for declares we have lost, meeting with out enemies and using those who hate us talking points as their own. Those in political power who support the peace movement have done everything in their power to ensure our solider will lose this war in order to win this next’s elections. I agree that Bush has made mistakes which war time president have not. Right now we have a chance to win this war but instead of backend our troops and giving them the funds and equipment need to fight this war the democrat’s want to withhold money in order to keep theses peace protester happy and to make sure that we do not win this war.
11/29/2007 11:28 AM MST on Gazette.com
pondfrogz wrote:
Wow, it appears I missed quite a conversation. Have a good day all and remember, there’s no problem that a six-pack and a good game on TV can’t cure. Just my meaningless comment of the day before tackling my fiancees chore list from $%*# on my day off.
11/29/2007 11:30 AM MST
turdman wrote:
Rambone-You are as lame as Tony Boy. Whine, Whine, I got stopped and I want to complain because I got caught and it isn’t fair.
11/29/2007 11:32 AM MST on Gazette.com
turdman wrote:
Bottom line in this case is the protestors are cowards. They protested and were legally arrested for violating the law. Then they all complained because they got arrested for again, breaking the law. Now they will sue the city because they believe their rights were violated. This group is really no better than the Westborough Baptist bunch. I hope next year they go to Denver to protest one of their events, so they can get what they really deserve.
11/29/2007 11:39 AM MST on Gazette.com
just1voice wrote:
Rambone dont flatter yourself. It would take a lot more than your couch commando comments to get under my skin. I never said your opinion made you those things. However, your lack of knowledge does. That and endangering your own child, setting a horrible example, and your running your mouth makes you a bad father. Whats wrong did I get under your skin?
No Im not one of them but I would give just about anything to watch you go one on one with the officer that you call “a pig”. Then you could teach you kids something useful, like how not to get your tail whipped.
11/29/2007 11:46 AM MST on Gazette.com
jtrione wrote:
Hey, Pastor Roy. Well, respectfully, I will disagree on some points. How do you equate “protesting” with “wanting to lose the war” ? That seems quite the logical leap to me. And, for the record, I have never taken a position on bringing the troops home early — I’m ex-military and understand the difficult role they are playing which does not fit nicely in “bumpersticker arguments” one way or the other. As one who has worn the uniform, I often cringe at some MoveOn.org statements and positions as shortsighted and limited. But, I realize that we on the left, have our normal centrists and our own “lunatic fringe”. We have to somehow work with both to craft a clear, cogent message.
I, personally, have never seen withdrawal from Iraq as a viable option and agree that a permanent presence of 50K per year is likely for the next few decades. As far as the failures of this administration (arguably in the running for the top five worst since the founding of the republic), there are not enough electrons to waste on these blogs. Yet, what seems more telling to me are the HUGE legions of right-wingers who, TO THIS DAY, support this guy. How many Bush-Cheney stickers do we STILL see on cars here ? It boggles the mind. All I know is that it certainly attaches a ‘stain’ to conservatism that will last for quite some time. For the next few decades, “conservative” will be automatically linked to the policies and actions of the Bush Administration. Nice albatross, guys, heavy enough for ya ?
And, PR, the point of this article was whether or not the protesters were in the right or not. Perhaps, they are reflective of a sentiment, wholly pervasive at the time, now weaning somewhat, that TO EVEN QUESTION the actions of the Bush-Cheney elite was somehow tantamount to disrespect for this nation. “If you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists.” Who thinks in such puerile, oversimplistic absolutes ? Republicans, that’s who. C’mon, to impugn the patriotism of Senator Max Cleland ? Seriously, how do they look themselves in the mirror in the morning ?
(laughing) I recall a comment at some point during all this when a secular progressive was asked about the disdain toward conservatives, especially religious ones, phrased as “you don’t need them to just be wrong, you need them to be evil”. As wrongheaded and awful as that statement appears, I think it’s dead-on. Perhaps where we liberals lose our footing is when we become unable to see the folks on the other side of the table as loving, compassionate humans who happen to be a bit misguided in their beliefs in our opinion. Maybe if we on the left felt that those on the right were truly championing our rights to hold (in their view) misguided beliefs, then protest incidents like these would be few and far between. But, when we feel that the cards are “stacked against us” by those in power and their representatives (the police), it’s easy to see the animus. jtrione@mac.com
11/29/2007 11:59 AM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what this has to do with art.
“Fake mug shots of President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other White House officials are on display at the main branch of the New York City Public Library, and the exhibit has caused quite a commotion.
About six manipulated photographs of members of the Bush administration made to look like mug shots are lining one of the landmark building’s hallways, with each current and former official holding a D.C. police date-of-arrest placard bearing the date they made “incriminating” statements about the war in Iraq, The New York Daily News reported.”
This is an perfect example of what is wrong with the peace movement and those who are against the war.
They love to Forcing their views on people by saying it is one thing and doing something else.
What does this have to do with the above story. The answer is both enter something under a different idea or name, but when there their used it to express a political view.
11/29/2007 11:59 AM MST on Gazette.com
csaction wrote:
Well, the parade arrests are still a hot topic on the ole blog. Where to start? It’s an amazing amount of misinformation but more importantly the correlation to those that would summarily convict us is 100% with those that know nothing about the basic facts. Disagree all you want; you would be amazed at how much I disagree what what was done, but understand this: the neocon tactic of revisionist reality (war is peace) doesn’t work when you want to battle videotape and photos with ill-informed subjective opinions. The city prosecutor couldn’t make that work and neither can you kids.
Glad to see Lexi prove she was the MIA tractor gurlie. Thanx. Glad to see preacher roid make no sense as usual. So on a day of great vindication, I’m glad to see those that hate peace lose a small battle.
To address as much as I have time for: “”whining and complaining” does not defeat prosecutors in court, Evidence does.
Elizabeth and Eric were not “PICKED OFF THE STREET” but pulled off their feet by Paladino, who emmbarrassed the department in 2003 with the “Dairy Queen Dozen” arrests outside the city limits.
There was no lie on the permit. We were invited back after walking in the 2006 parade. No subterfuge, and O’Donnell said he had no problem with our message. The problem was with the lie he was told by the same person who lied to police about the permit. http://csaction.org/StPatsDay/Odonnell.html
David B, all 7 were “prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law” in fact the charges were changed twice to make it easier, but the city didn’t make it’s case, so hung jury, then dropped charges. Patty Kelly is right that the outcome would be the same or they would loose outright with another trial. She wrong that the jury just didn’t get it. They did, except for the wife of the defense contractor who should have been recused at the start.
There are larger community issues of how private is a function held in the middle of Tejon and subsidized 50% for the cost of police? For such “private” events, does the 1st amendment apply, or does a permit void the constitution? If the constitution is voided by “private” events, does that mean our permit the next day, for our 4th anniversary rally mean that we could ban people we don’t agree with from Acacia Park? (like we would want to) http://csaction.org/31807/31807.html
In the end, when we have become a total fascist state and have no rights left, (while the American equivalent of the Germans in 1938 sleep) you won’t be able to find anyone who will admit they fought those fighting for rights and peace just like you can’t find anyone who will admit they voted for niXXXon.
In the end, this is a great conversation for our city to have and any city in America, because we need to understand our system in it’s superiority and not get in the way of it’s progress in the world. The lack of understanding of how our constitution works is appalling, but this is progress.
I guess we’ll see all of you at the 5pm press conference in front of the courthouse?
11/29/2007 12:00 PM MST on Gazette.com
hmmmmm wrote:
For someone who complains about being lied about, you sure post a lot only when it comes to your ridiculous protest where your people broke the law and got treated accordingly. Your people refused police orders, were subsequently moved, forcibly as you left no other option, after your “old lady” asked several officers what it would take to get arrested, and then appropriately charged. Where is the mis-information in that csaction? Your people are not martyrs, not worthy of anything but contempt. A full video of the incident shows the truth, and as much of a spin as you put on this, your people are still wrong. Next time, don’t expect any nicer treatment when you pull the same stunt.
11/29/2007 12:06 PM MST on Gazette.com
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hmmmmm wrote:
Rambone, are you speaking from experience on the gangbang comment little guy? Sure sounds like it. Maybe the aggressive defense of the police is a direct result of your ridiculous aggressive contempt for them. You opinion is ignorant. Nice racist photo by the way, Mark Fuhrman is still in Idaho if you need a place to move to.
11/29/2007 12:09 PM MST on Gazette.com
coloradogirl wrote:
I am a true believer in that life is just not fair sometimes. Justice does not ALWAYS prevail. I don’t think this was a vindication, just an abandonment of justice in the best interest of the situation.
I applaud the City Attorney for “giving up” so to speak. It’s like arguing over a $700 couch in divorce proceedings. You spend twice that to the attorney’s arguing over it. In the end, it’s just not worth it and the bigger person has to give up. Just like in this situation. The City Attorney didn’t want to waste anymore money on such frugal matters.
I personally was a witness to the groups display at the parade and I’m just as disgusted now as I was then. I wish we could send the protesters over to Iraq and let them protest there. Now THAT would be worth watching….
11/29/2007 12:32 PM MST on Gazette.com
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hmmmmm wrote:
Been here 20+ years, have a BS in computer related fields. I did military work in communications and do this job to defend the good people of my city from people like you. If you like I can send you the links for “aggressive” and “defense” definitions in great big letters and really small words so you can understand.
11/29/2007 12:52 PM MST
turdman wrote:
Rambone-Come on dude just having a little fun! I am just shocked is all. I mean I have never heard a grown man whine like a school girl. If you keep pushing out that lower lip of yours when you pout, you should put some sunscreen on so you don’t get a sunburn.
Can we still be friends?
11/29/2007 12:59 PM MST on Gazette.com
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jeep4fun wrote:
If protestors wish to protest they should apply for a permit through the city as any march is required to. For protestors to ruin what should be a community event for the purpose of enjoyment is simply silly. I believe parade organizers have the right to prohibit those groups (which this was)who wish to disrupt parade proceedings. The police acted appropriately in this instance. I grow tired of seeing idiots place the police department in a bad light due to their poor choices and actions. If you wish to truly disrupt a community event then you have to pay the piper. If you disagree with a particular event or view, request a permit from the city for your own event, but let our citizens truly enjoy the parades provided without divisive and inciteful actions and messages
11/29/2007 12:59 PM MST on Gazette.com
turdman wrote:
Hey Rambone,
Since your not doing very well on this blog today, maybe you can go down to the Gazette Telegraph office and protest this blog. I mean really, we must be violating your rights in some way. Maybe CSACTION can go with you and video tape the whole event. He can can then edit out the truth and you two can have a local TV station air your story. Maybe a lawyer can take your case and you could win millions by suing us. Maybe an officer will drive by and you could sue the city as well.
Justice, isn’t it a beautiful thing.
11/29/2007 1:09 PM MST on Gazette.com
jtrione wrote:
So, Jeep4Fun, what I hear you saying is that some government functionary, probably a conservative Republican appointee, gets to decide who does or does not get to be included in an event for “our citizens” (your words)? Based on what set of criteria ? Who are those “special” citizens ? Thought we all had a right to peaceably assemble or to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Where do you find justification to abridge those rights or place boundaries on them ? Remember, if not expressly enumerated, then those rights reside in the people. Not in you, dear friend, or in local laws designed to limit speech. Talk about “special rights”. 😉
11/29/2007 1:20 PM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
Great points coloradogirl and jeep4fun….
11/29/2007 1:24 PM MST on Gazette.com
lwirbel wrote:
Jeepforfun, what you describe is not what the Constitution intended freedom of speech to mean. There are limits to allowing a soapbox speaker to stand on private property and say something. However, Mike the anti-abortionist has every right to show big pictures of foetuses on public land outside the World Arena, and it doesn’t do any good to say,
“He’s disturbing me because I’m going to see an entertainment event, Cirque de Soleil or Lee Ann Rimes or whatever.” James Madison and those writing the Bill of Rights wanted to make sure that freedom of speech WAS in your face, did NOT require a permit, and was bound to be incendiary and controversial. That’s the only way to protect it. Otherwise, our nation would be a larger version of Singapore.
11/29/2007 1:36 PM MST on Gazette.com
justhefacts wrote:
jtrione- This is not a “free assembly” issue. O’Donnell owns the right to the parade which means, he can deny access if he chooses. If the protesors want to make fools of themselves they can do it from the curb which is protected by the Constitution.
11/29/2007 1:38 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Jim, I may be wrong, but my understanding on these parade, when you applied for permission to be in the event you must fill out paperwork with what type of display you are going to enter. So if this is the case can not the group in charge make it clear on their paperwork, what type of display is permitted and what type is not? So if this group next’s year make it clear to all involve what will be permitted and what will not be permitted, we may be able to avoide this problem next’s time.
11/29/2007 1:38 PM MST
csaction wrote:
Hmmm, if you are a cop, thank you for your service and sacrifice.
Now, post the video. No one on earth has sifted through this evidence more than I have and I know every second of video and every photo. The lawyers and cops don’t know this evidence better than I do. You don’t need to post 165 videos on YouTube like I have, just 1. The one that shows what you say it shows. Just 1 video. 1 photo. 1 piece of evidence. 1 thing to back up what you say. You all have the same burden of proof as I do, so pony up. http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=csaction
Factual correction: Elizabeth asked several officers to arrest her, AFTER being dragged, because she had already gotten the punishment (not by a jury of her peers) but from Paladino, and wanted the rest of her day in court. She knew enough about it to know she had no recourse for the thousands in medical costs without the system’s protection, which she insisted on. (not contempt for the system, but admiration)
Jeep, we followed all rules and got a permit. We paid for a permit the next day in the park, and decided NOT to have our protest rally for the 4th anniversary the same day as the parade, which would have gotten us much more exposure with the thousands downtown. We decided to do both the parade with the peace message, welcomed the year before, and then the protest the next day. (4th year) Separate things with separate intentions. Everyone didn’t participate in both.
We did not make the police look bad and I don’t think the department looks bad. I think we’ve lost the PR battle, not them, and people (other than here) are capable of seeing that a couple of cops going too far does not a department make. The rest did their jobs with respect and professionalism and garnered admiration from us all.
We deal with cops all the time, and for those old gray beards like em, we’re talking 40 years of activism. I admire police, have 1 in my family, 1 was arrested at the parade and 1 testified for us along with photo evidence. I respect the new chief, and I’m pissed about the budget cuts. The rogues hurt the force, the majority are a credit.
11/29/2007 1:41 PM MST on Gazette.com
jwstrue wrote:
Jim, this was a community event–someone has to be in charge or it wouldn’t be an “organized” event. Jeep4fun is merely stating those in charge should have discretionary authority when it comes to eliminating participants who are suspect. In addition this was not the time for an assembly, whether peaceful or not. Compare this to a recent public democratic debate when a heckler became disruptive–was the heckler allowed to remain in the debate audience?
Just the fact this group applied under a separate entity makes them suspicious from the start (my opinion). Some would view this as a sneaky attempt to disrupt the event by attempting to hide their identity from the start.
11/29/2007 1:41 PM MST on Gazette.com
jtrione wrote:
Pastor, Loring said it beautifully when he said that the Framers did not intend for anyone to limit speech. That person, authorizing a placard or not, is, by definition, infringing on the rights of free speech. O’Donnell’s claim that he could restrict displays of “social advocacy” during the parade is the problem. He does not retain any such right.
On public streets, the public can say whatever it wants, tasteful or otherwise. During PrideFest, would it be legal to restrict Phelps and his Westboro Lunatics from marching around with their tacky signs ? Of course not. Did the Nazis march in Skokie during the 70’s ? Heck ya. Freedom comes with a price tag that says “everything you see or hear may or may not offend your sensibilities”. Tough noogies. Deal with it. So, however misplaced an anti-war protest might be during a civic event, it is well within the purview of what the Framers intended. Period. Stylistically is that the best forum ? Well, that’s a question worthy of debate.
11/29/2007 1:46 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Iwirbel, this may shocked you and other but I am against those who do what do you call it “Mike the anti-abortionist has every right to show big pictures of foetuses on public land outside the World Arena, and it doesn’t do any good to say,” I believe this type of behavior does more wrong then good. I am against those who protest gay event with signs that use the f word or condemn them to hell, I am against those who hold signs calling our soldiers babe killer and such.
11/29/2007 1:55 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Jim are you telling me that if I show up for the Gay Pride event and want to march down the street with signs that say they need to repent. I have the right to do it and they must let me into the event? I am using this example to get an understand of what you are saying. I was always under the impression that the group in charge off the event has the right to say who can be involved with the event and who can not.
11/29/2007 2:02 PM MST on Gazette.com
justhefacts wrote:
CSACTION-I do not like what you stand for; however, your last post is the most honest thing you have written in a long time. I disagree with you on when Fineron poked and begged the officer to arrest her.
My point is this; The officers were there legally and had ever right to remove Fineron and others from the event. Just because she got dragged across the street does not make it excessive force. Refusing to leave the area after being ordered is a crime and the officers had every right to arrest them. If the city decides not prosecute that is their loss. Obvious the police dept agreed that there was no use of excessive force used by the officers because nobody got disciplined. We all know the police dept disciplines their own people.
The only good thing out of this whole incident is that none of these protestors will even disrupt the parade again. Thay will have to wait for another Palmer Park incident to spew their lies.
11/29/2007 2:03 PM MST on Gazette.com
csaction wrote:
The 2 issues are the heart of the matter. jtrione and lwirbel are correct. Follow the logic path. If the laws of the land don’t apply to a “private” function or property, then I can grow pot across the street from any school where I own property. Of course not. It’s illegal, and my private ownership does not circumvent the law.
Mr. O’Donnell gets the nonprofit (disputed) rate for police protection just like we did, the next day, in Acacia park. Half off. $25 per hour per cop, for 2 at a time, which is $50 per hour.
Acacia Park is public property, andthat designation does not change, when it is rented out for an alloted time. Anyone that disagrees with us about this war (and there are still some) can show up and protest our rally. They usually do. They are always offered water and respect. Our permit does NOT give us the right to say “the 1st amendment of the constitution does not apply for you today, so shut up”. (we, of course, would never even try that)
In the middle of Tejon, closed to the public traffic, for hours, with 46 police subsidized for thousands by the city through the tax payers, Mr. O’Donnell’s permit CANNOT allow him to do what I describe above.
Further, he cannot be allowed to apply his “new and improved” constitutional protections for free speech to ban a message of peace, BUT have military guards, political candidates, political parties, labor unions, and many other political issues raised at the same place at the same time.
I don’t think it’s difficult to see how far this would go if we were to allow it. You either understand the beauty of what the founding fathers did, or you don’t. You have to listen to me disagree with you. The Cost? I have to listen to you. (giggle) It’s a great burden some days, but the nation needs us all to be strong. LOL.
11/29/2007 2:06 PM MST on Gazette.com
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iraqwarvet wrote:
I love hearing people tell protestor how to protest. Like lexii, telling these people that they must protest a certain way. Or Pastor Roy using a totally different subject to illustrate what he means and making no sense. These are the same people who if they lived back in the 1950’s and 60’s would be hitting and beating the nicely dressed black men sitting at the lunch counters. Lexii tell the truth, you hate freedom? Please leave my country then. I defend the rights of all Americans, while you spit on the constitution.
11/29/2007 2:12 PM MST on Gazette.com
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justhefacts wrote:
Pastor-The event coordinator can prevent anybody they want from entering their parade, event or gathering as long as they have a permit to close the street. If the protestor’s wants to stand on the street corner and display signs they have the right to do so as long as they are not on private property or impeding veh or ped traffic. Westboro never entered any event, they just stood on the outside and protested.
11/29/2007 2:12 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
OK, If I am holding a parade and I want it to be all about St. Patrick’s Day . An I make it clear no political message permitted, how is that stopping some one’ s1st Admen tent, because I am sure next’s year and maybe the next’s parade in town this will be happen. Why? To ensure we do not have another problem like this.
11/29/2007 2:16 PM MST
iraqwarvet wrote:
Hey Pastor Roy, I’ll help you out. Next Friday night in Manitou Springs, Iraq Veterans Against the War will be putting on a concert at The Ancient Mariner. How about you come down there and walk around the place with your pro-war banners. And Pro-War doesn’t mean Pro-troop. Hold high your “Death to all who are not Christian, White, and American” sign. I promise not to kick you out. And so will all the active duty troops and veterans of this war that will be at the show. Deal?
11/29/2007 2:16 PM MST on Gazette.com
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jtrione wrote:
And, yes, Pastor, that’s exactly what I’m saying. You have the freedom to walk down Tejon during PrideFest wearing a giant A-frame sign quoting pithy silly verses from some retarded book of allegory talking about how all the other right-wing zealots want to create a permanent second-class citizen status for GLBT people. That’s your right, hon, and many have fought and died for you to exercise that freedom. You might get some perplexed looks, but more likely than not, you’d get propositioned or invited for drinks and a party. Tough noogies. Deal with it. Price of freedom sort of thing.
11/29/2007 2:19 PM MST on Gazette.com
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pastor wrote:
Iragwarvet I reposted this just for you since I had a question for you.
pastor wrote:
No one want to silence the peace protesters right to speak, but we believe that there is a time and place for it. An most people believe that the St. Patrick’s Day parade was not the right time and place. Most people also seem to believe that if a cop asked you move you move you do not act like a baby. But I also must remind everyone that the peace protesters hand book, when the police ask you to move you drop an make a scene, so that it is caught on film, the reason is so you can make the police look like the bad guy.
Iragwarvet I have a question for you since you agree with the anti-war groups. Is it ok to block soldier return from the war? Is it ok to delay the soldier meeting with their family? Is it ok to destroy railroad tracks and stop the return of the military equipment from the war?
11/29/2007 8:56 AM MST on Gazette.com
11/29/2007 2:22 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Hey Pastor, I counted 15 anti-war, Anti-bush bumperstickers today just driving through post going from gate 20 to the car wash near the B-street entrance. You should probably call the Post Commander and bring an end to this. But DOD Directive 1344.10 says they can, you know why? Because their Americans.
11/29/2007 2:24 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Now Jim you last posting was an insult to me why did you have to act that way toward me. I do thank you for your stands .
11/29/2007 2:25 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Iragwarvet sorry that is my 20th year of marriage dinner to one of most wonderful women in the world. Also I was not the posting about the soldiers getting in trouble. Oh by the way my nices husband had someone put one on his truck at night and he was very upset about it.
11/29/2007 2:28 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Pastor Roy, again asking a black or white question. But, I’ll try to answer it for you. No, I don’t think its alright to block troops. So what now? What brillant thing do you have to say now?
Now I have a question for you, did you think black men trying to sit at a all white lunch counter in the late 50’s and early 60’s was a bad way to protest segregation or did they make a point? Maybe you should read Thoreau someday.
11/29/2007 2:30 PM MST on Gazette.com
justhefacts wrote:
CSACTION-Once again your mudding the water. Nobody is talking about your right to protest. You just can’t jump into a parade without permission. If the coordinator, holding the permit, decides they don’t want you to enter their parade they can exclude you from participation. If you choose to stand on the curb and spew then go for it.
If a war vet decided to get up on your stage during your permitted event in the park and take over the microphone he could be arrested. If you, the event coordinator, decided he was not welcome you have that right to exclude him.
Pretty simple stuff.
11/29/2007 2:30 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Okay Pastor Roy, since you can’t make it, I’ll invite you to our next tower guard. You can bring your sign then, and its fine with us. Since it would be a good change, only two people actually had a problem with us 2 weeks ago. Or atleast only two people had the balls to come down to Acacia Park and say something. Pastor do you have the balls?
11/29/2007 2:34 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Hey justthefacts, I’ll ask you the same question. Shouldn’t the black men in the 1950’s and 60’s been arrested for doing that illegal action of sitting at the white-only lunch counters? You probably think they should have been beating by the police and angry white men, right? Oh wait, thats what did happen…sound familiar?
11/29/2007 2:37 PM MST
justhefacts wrote:
Hey Pastor when you go to the show this weekend don’t forget your “Hillary in 08” poster.They probably wii have quite a few for rent there. You might be able to buy a Hillary shirt from them also.
11/29/2007 2:37 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
They were peace protester who say they have the right of free speech, and that blocked the soldiers coming back from Iraq from seeing their family. As one soldier was quotes as saying “ We all wanted to be the ones to remove these people from our post” These protester destroy the railroad tracks going into the base and the Dem. Governor and Dem. Mayor stopped the police from doing there job and removing these people.
11/29/2007 2:41 PM MST on Gazette.com
justhefacts wrote:
Pastor- Don’t forget your “Hillary in 08” poster when you go to Manitou this weekend. Bring money also, they will be selling Hillary and Bill shirts there.
11/29/2007 2:42 PM MST on Gazette.com
justhefacts wrote:
Vet-pick a fight with somebody else. Your comment has nothing to do with this blog.
11/29/2007 2:45 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
justthefacts, for your information since we are a 501(c)3 we don’t endorse any candidates, but personally I won’t vote for anyone who voted for this war. Please go read H.J. 114 from Oct. 12, 2002. Senator Clinton voted for it. Can’t do it. And none of us are Democrats. So try not to pigeon hole us
11/29/2007 2:46 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Pastor, I read the news. I know what your saying and I didn’t agree with their actions. So what else do you got?
11/29/2007 2:47 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Oh by the way I drove by the Guard tower that week and I counted about 15 people and that was including the homeless people hang out in the park. So yes I did go by, on both Sat and Sunday during the day and I counted about the same amount of people.
11/29/2007 2:48 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
justthefacts, haha! can’t answer the question so you run. You are sad.
11/29/2007 2:48 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
JusttheFacts, why don’t you just show up. Why do you have to get someone else to do your work? I don’t like Hillary and never voted for Bill. I don’t vote for people who use the military as nation-builders. Sound like a current President?
11/29/2007 2:51 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
Justefacts so much for peace love people inside the peace movement, I took it what he was trying to do was pick a fight with everyone who is against the peace movement, By trying to call us raciest.
11/29/2007 2:52 PM MST
pastor wrote:
Justefacts so much for peace love people inside the peace movement, I took it what he was trying to do was pick a fight with everyone who is against the peace movement, By trying to call us raciest.
11/29/2007 2:53 PM MST on Gazette.com
peanuts wrote:
So now it is politically correct to try people, WHAT AN INJUSTICE!
11/29/2007 2:53 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
JusttheFacts, my comment has nothing to do with this blog? What do you mean by that? Americans protested in the late 50’s and early 60’s by doing something illegal, if you know anything about history, black men sat at lunch-counters in the south which were labeled white-only. They were beaten by both the police and angry white men. It was illegal what these black men were doing. Their is some history for you, since obviously your still in grade school. Now, were the Black men back then justified for what they were doing, or should the white police and white men have continued doing what they were doing? Should the Black men have just been arrested?
11/29/2007 2:55 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
So that would leave FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush, Clinton, and Bush. You would not vote for.
11/29/2007 2:57 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Pastor, I answered your question, why can’t you or justthefacts answer mine? I’m not saying your a racist, I’m just comparing the non-violent protests of the civil rights movement to what happened here on our streets of Colorado Springs, specifically what you people think is unjustifable behavior, since back then it was also considered unjustifiable behavior by the black men in the south. Whats your opinion?
11/29/2007 3:00 PM MST on Gazette.com
iraqwarvet wrote:
Pastor, again not black and white. I never said I’m anti-all wars. Just this one. Open your mind dude.
11/29/2007 3:02 PM MST on Gazette.com
rambone wrote:
hmmmmm wrote: “Been here 20+ years”
So this gives an implant like you the right to tell native born people like me were to go? I bet I got the California part right.
“BS in computer related fields”
I never heard of that degree. I that like,”I started but transfered when courses got tough”?
“defend the good people of my city from people like you”
Me, with no criminal record, military service, college educated? Yeah right, defend from people like me. Maybe what the people need is to be defended from rouge cops like you.
“for “aggressive” and “defense” definitions”
No thanks, but I would like the definition of the combined words. You know, the way you posted it earlier. Nothing over two syllables please, I don’t have all week for you to spell check.
11/29/2007 3:03 PM MST on Gazette.com
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iraqwarvet wrote:
Oh yeah, Pastor, I’m only 35. I don’t really remember FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, or Nixon (even though I was two when he resigned).
11/29/2007 3:03 PM MST on Gazette.com
pastor wrote:
The issue is we have always been involved in nations building in one form or another.
11/29/2007 3:16 PM MST on Gazette.com
I was obsessed with Bernadette Soubirous when I was a Catholic schoolgirl. You’ll recall, or perhaps you won’t, that the Mother of God appeared to Bernadette at Lourdes in 1858. Or so Bernadette claimed.
Filled with unbelief and not wishing to delude the gullible faithful, the church hierarchy convened a Council of Enquiry to check out Bern’s story. Oh how the Bishop wrestled with his monumental burden! “But if Bernadette does not want to deceive, was she not deceived herself? How could she believe to see and hear what she did not see and hear? Was she not the victim of hallucinations? How could we believe her? The wisdom of her answers reveals in this child a spirit of goodness, a quiet imagination, good sense beyond her years. Religious feelings never showed in her a spirit of exhalation; nobody could prove in the young girl neither intellectual disorder, nor change of mind nor unusual personality nor morbid feelings which would allow her to give way to a creative imagination.”
The Bishop of Tarbus, after only four years’ deliberation, decided that Bernadette was worthy and the people were given permission to believe her. The divine presence revealed, because of the moral purity of one young girl. Hmmmmm.
Upon hearing this story as a ten-year-old I determined to be the next Bernadette. I was certain I could be as holy and pious as she was. I secreted myself in my room at night and quietly recited the rosary, lingering over the Hail Marys. Surely the Blessed Virgin would take notice of my glow-in-the-dark rosary beads and appear to me as I lay in my little bed. I worried about my response. Should I feign surprise? Perhaps a sense of peaceful recognition? What if she expected tears of joy? Would I be able to produce them without delay? What if she appeared and my acting was deemed inferior? What would happen to poor Mary?
I enrolled in a Creative Dramatics class to ensure my success.
Despite years of piety, countless novenas (guaranteed to work! follow instructions exactly or no money back!), mental sojourns along the Via Dolorosa, Easter vigils, midnight masses, prayer flags, candles, medals–still no Mary. After learning that Marie was synonymous with Mary in the eyes of linguists everywhere, my final act of radical devotion saw me refuse to take a confirmation name. There could be no saint that I hoped to emulate more than the Mother of God. Mary, are you listening?
I finally gave up hope the summer after my sophomore year. I burned my uniforms and transferred to a public school. I decided that if Mary was too good for me, I’d find another other-worldly persona that liked my obviously flawed self. Who could be bad enough for me? Perhaps Satan?
After a short stint as a bad girl I found Jesus and stopped grieving my fractured relationship with Mary. I was drawn to the fundamental purity and wisdom of that most-revered and infallible document, the Holy Bible. In my youth, the Bible was clad in white leatherette with garish gold writing and a big picture of Jesus. It was placed in a prominent place in every Catholic home. But read? I was sure the Pope would not approve. Popes are popes and have need to pontificate. This requires a certain degree of cooperative ignorance on the part of the pontificatees, does it not? Feeling like a teenage boy with his daddy’s Playboy magazine, I sat in my room and studied the Bible. I could not believe how deceived I had been! Satan himself had been standing between me and the Holy Spirit, the only true path to peace and enlightenment. Jesus had been there all along, quietly knocking on the door to my heart, and I had been so caught up in my works-based salvation, my meager attempts to be holy, that I missed his call. Fuck.
Thus began a twenty-year stint as a religious fundamentalist. I will spare you most of the details of my quest to reconcile my inherently sinful nature with my holy and perfect god. I will say that I had a team of prayer warriors beseeching god to reveal himself to Dave, my militant atheist husband. I begged the Lord to allow the scales to fall from Dave’s eyes so he, too, could see as clearly as I did. It turns out that it wasn’t only Dave who was in grave danger. It was pretty much everyone I knew. And every unreached person in the four corners of the earth. It was up to me personally to pray without ceasing for each and every one of these lost souls. Their eternal destiny depended entirely on me. Holy fuck. I had wasted a lot of time on Mary.
Try as I might I could not suppress my rational nor my spiritual side forever. An academic approach feels safe when treading in parts unknown, so I embarked on a study of comparative religion. Surely most of the world could not be held accountable for truths that God in his infinite wisdom had not chosen to reveal to them. And surely it could not possibly fall on me and a handful of the idiotic chosen to make certain that the world had a chance to hear the good news. While I was sporting my hard-won Mind of Christ, my mind developed a mind of its own. What a crock of shit! was the refrain that replaced the time-honored Praise the Lord!
I’ll cut to the end. I believe that there is something more knowing, more powerful, more permanent, more loving than me. But to attach a personality, a gender, a shape, even a part of speech, to a universal force is not only foolish, it’s often tragic. If you want to see human frailty in action look no further than organized religion.
Spiritual reality has been a part of mankind since the beginning. We do our best to give our ephemeral understanding structure. We fashion an idol that resonates within us. Where food is scarce and money more so, perhaps god resembles a golden calf, the highest and best we know. Where women suffer together and depend upon the earth’s bounty to bear daily burdens, perhaps she is a goddess who permeates the natural world. Men stripped of their voices and forced to serve a capricious master create a suffering servant who will rule heaven and earth one day. When our basic needs are met and we are perched on the top of Maslow’s ladder, we have nowhere to go but inward. Divinity resides within.
At the deepest place we are the same. We are one tribe. We are protected and loved by a universal force that knows no bounds. We are free to define it as we will. Our understanding of it may change over time, a reflection of our growth. We must give others the same freedom to be, to know, to discover, to change. I am thankful that I have had that chance. That I still have that chance.
With the coincidental deaths of Michelangelo Antonioni and Ingmar Bergman, I was reminded of another synchronistic moment the two shared at the magical close of the 1950s. This nouvelle golden age of film rose amidst the literary milestones Naked Lunch, Goodbye Columbus, Tin Drum and Sirens of Titan. The monumental films from that season could fill two top ten lists, including Avventura and Virgin Spring.
Though the TOONS online database is down momentarily, I was able to assemble this list. Have I omitted any? L’Avventura, Michelangelo Antonioni The Virgin Spring, Ingmar Berman Black Orpheus, Marcel Camus Never on a Sunday, Jules Dassin La Dolce Vita, Federico Fellini Breathless, Jean-Luc Godard Rio Bravo, Howard Hawks Psycho, Alfred Hitchcock Spartacus, Stanley Kubric The World of Apu, Satyajit Ray Hiroshima mon Amour, Alain Resnais The Magnificent Seven, John Sturges The 400 Blows, Francois Truffaut Touch of Evil, Orson Welles Some like it Hot, Billy Wilder Ben Hur, William Wyler
And for cineastes, these too: Le Trou, Jacques Becker The Young One, Luis Bunuel The Cousins, Claude Chabrol Kagi, Kon Ichikawa Zazie dans le Métro, Louis Malle Peeping Tom, Michael Powell
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Computer Sciences Corporation 1250 Academy Park Loop Colorado Springs CO
Dyncorp 1115 Elkton Dr Colorado Springs CO
Dyncorp Information Systems 985 Space Center Dr Colorado Springs CO
Halliburton Energy Services 410 17th St., Ste. 600 Denver CO
Dyncorp 303 E 17th Ave Denver CO
Dyncorp Inc. 2525 S Dayton Way Denver CO
Computer Sciences Corporation 1726 Cole Blvd Golden CO
Dyncorp Inc. 1711 Illinois St Golden CO
Dyncorp 143 Union Blvd Lakewood CO
Where is the war profiteering Center of Evil located in Colorado Springs? That is located at the well hidden away Lockheed complex at Fountain and Academy Blvd. You might be driving by it every day and not even have noticed the 3 groups of buildings in that area belonging to Lockheed.
Right down the road is the huge Satellite Hotel. There are other ‘defense’ companies located in the same area but easily missed by those driving by.
I met an otherwise conservative old gentleman yesterday with a refreshing answer to the immigration question. Said he: “I’d welcome them!”
“This nation was built on immigration, we’re all immigrants -except the Native Americans- and I believe there’s room for plenty more. There’s obviously work so let them come.”
That’s the kind of empathy I think is necessary before we can address the real problem of immigration: what is driving refugees to cross our borders?
If Iowans suddenly started flooding into Kansas, only the most self-centered xenophobe would conclude it was for Kansas’ superior character. The rest would wonder, what is happening in Iowa to drive all those people from their homes? What industry is destroying the farms and businesses leaving Iowans no choice but to move off? More than likely it would be the same culprits that are at work in Mexico.
Big Agra and the usual multinationals, aided by the traditional ruling elite, have been raping Mexico and Central America for years, forcing the populations to move north, not for greener pastures, but any pasture at all. Mexicans are not coming to America because they want to be Americans. They do not embrace American culture, even our language. They are a displaced people. Let’s welcome them into our system and together we can address what powers are at work which have stolen their homelands. The forces are multinational, but the tools are American. They are the World Bank and friends. Our government.
It wasn’t always thus. I chanced to look up Emma Lazarus’ poem at the base of the Statue of Liberty where there are more words than form the fabled phrase we know by heart. To me they reflect a grand ideal that today serves only to inflate the American sense of self-importance. Time to go back to school lest The New Colossus (Mother of Exiles) become like the old.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
The actress who plays Ugly Betty said she thought it was awesome that America has embraced a completely new face.
New face, her ass! Ugly Betty is a new face like Urkel was not Webster, Gary Coleman, Fat Albert, and Kid Dynamite. Like Alf was not Ronald Reagan.
The best thing I can say about Ugly Betty –I learned tonight from the acceptance speech– the show is about hispanic American immigrants, a faction of our population sorely lacking in heroic protagonists on Anglo TV. Too bad the creators consider Hispanic ugly.
Ugly
What does Ugly Betty say about how Americans see themselves on TV when to see ugly, we have to fit an actress with prosthetics, bad hair, braces, and a fat suit. And of course, eyeglasses. Ugly is artificial. We seem also to want to say that ugly is genetic and it’s for keeps.
Although the dental braces indicate Betty is consiously on track for self-improvement and TV normalcy, her transistional ugliness is also a movie insider’s ugly. It’s the stereotypical Hollywood beginner’s ugly where female Horatio Algers start out as caterpillars but everyone is already assured a happy ending because from the begining they could recognize under the familiar cliched trappings the butterfly that is going to emerge, usually a recognizable beautiful actress. The actress who accepted the Golden Globe award was of course very pretty.
Except where most story lines dealing with appearances are guided by the idea that beauty is only skin deep etc, Ugly Betty is self-consciously inferior. struggling as she is every episode to prove and improve herself.
Though not enough to dress better. A superficiality that strikes me with Ugly Betty is the insistence on ugly clothes and support shoes. How many ugly people do you know address corporate boards in their grandmother’s worst frock? One of the glaring aspects about unattractiveness in the real world is the insistence of some homely people to dress like they are not.
World Cinema, like typical domestic independent film, is distinguished by actors who look like authentic people. The faces are real, the complexions imperfect, the looks asymmetric, the hair whatever it is. Their stories are thus easier to communicate and identify with. In Hollywood, plastic is real, and the audiences who watch the blockbusters don’t get anything from the experience but adrenaline.
Why did I not see the Hispanic component in Ugly Betty before -except for the dad who doesn’t speak English and who gets a visit from the INS? Because Ugly Betty’s caricature masks every nuance of reality. Her artificial face shows cultural, social or racial feature. She is a potato head with four or five “ugly” accessories, one of them being race.
When Consumer Reports Magazine set out to rate commercial chocolate chip cookies against each other, they needed a benchmark. To that end they hired professional bakers to optimize a chocolate chip cookie recipe. Because the cookie itself was a cultural convention, it was perhaps no surprise that reverse engineering backed them into the conventional Tollhouse Cookie recipe. But with a couple twists.
First, the use of dark brown sugar as opposed to regular, second, the addition of vanilla extract, third, unsalted sweet butter, and fourth, particular care in mixing the ingredients.
It wasn’t as simple as throwing everything into the bowl. Each addition would be mixed at slow speed for a specified time with a high speed burst at the end. Texture seemed to make the critical distinction. If you’re going to start now, you’ll have to wait until the butter is room temperature.
What follows is the CONSUMER REPORTS recipe, first published in 1982.
We wanted a cookie with a chewy interior, crunchy edges, well-blended flavor, and a high overall chocolate impact . –Consumer Reports Magazine
2-1/4 Cups Flour
1 level Teaspoon Baking Soda
1 level Teaspoon Salt
3/4 Cup White Sugar
3/4 Cup Packed Dark Brown Sugar
2 sticks (1/2 pound) Sweet Butter, room temperature
1 teaspoon Vanilla Extract
2 Large Eggs
12-ounce Semisweet Chocolate Chips
Preheat oven to 375F.
Mix the flour, baking soda and salt in a bowl and set aside.
Use a stand-type electric mixer to mix the two sugars briefly at low speed.
Add the butter in small gobbets, mixing first at low speed and then at high. Beat the mixture until it’s pale, light, and very fluffy. Add the vanilla at the mixer’s lowest speed, then beat at high speed for a few seconds.
Add the eggs, again at the lowest speed, switching to high speed for the final second or so. The eggs should be well beaten in, and the mix should look creamed, not curdled.
Add the flour mixture, a half cup at a time, mixing at low speed for about one minute, then at high speed for a few seconds.
Scrape down the bowl’s sides with a spatula, add the chocolate chips, and mix at low speed for about 10 seconds. If need be, scrape the bowl’s sides again and mix for a few more seconds.
Put tablespoons of the mix on an ungreased cookie sheet.
Bake until the cookies are pale golden brown (nine minutes in an electric oven, 10 to 11 minutes in a gas one).
What kind of christianity is it we’re practicing with our tortures and war?
Islam 622 AD
No one of you is a believer until he desires
for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Christianity 27 AD
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Luke 6:31
Taoism 200 BC
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain,
and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien
Confucianism 500 BC
Do not do to others what you would not like
yourself. Then there will be no resentment
against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2
Zoroastrianism 600 BC
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing
another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5
Buddhism 600 BC
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself
would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1
Judaism 1300 BC
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman.
This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Hinduism 1500 BC
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others
what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517
The local NBC affiliate 5/30 did an excellent story involving Camp Casey. See the video clip here.
They covered our Sunday morning send-off of IVAW members who were leaving to join the March 14 peace march along the Gulf Coast. And they also gave our banners some visibility.
THERE IS NO WAR ON TERROR flies in the face of the Media worldview. Let’s dispell a couple of other media reported fallacies, too verbose for banners.
Dubai port scandal
The problem with a port takeover by a Dubai owned company has nothing to do with U.S. security, not as concerns terrorists. The takeover is part of the larger globalization move to privatize world infrastructure and enforce “free trade” subjugation.
The only tie-in with terrorism has to do with Dubai’s involvement with the 9/11 hijackers. Whoever let 9/11 happen, under the nose of the FBI, could make something happen again, out of reach of American security agencies, facilitated with Dubai’s complicity.
Samarra mosque bombing
Who is it that wants a civil war in Iraq? The quick and mutually diffused tensions following the mosque bombing suggests that Iraqis do not want a civil war.
Evidence is pointing to U.S. involvement in the destruction of the Golden Dome Shrine in Samarra. Residents are fighting US and UK efforts to begin rebuilding the dome before the forensic evidence can be analyzed to determine the real culprits behind the explosives.
Experts doubt that Sunnis were behind the destruction of a mosque which is revered by both Shia ad Sunni alike. Pious peoples do not behave that way. Even the troubles in Ireland never devolved to exploding each other’s churches.
Where in the world are there peoples so uncultured, so spiritually callous, so uneducated, insentitive and irreverant that they destroy their brother’s places of worship?
Eric and I had fun in Costa Rica playing with a rainbow in the hills outside Santa Elena. We traveled down a narrow bumpy road until the bright double rainbow appeared to end in the backyard of the only house in sight. An inspiring illusion to be sure, but still only an illusion. Rainbows are like that, aren’t they? Manipulable to a point; there, but not, depending on your vantage point; seen by all, fully comprehended by few. As kids we dreamed of finding the promised pot of leprechaun gold, but we never could quite get there. The promise forever remained only a promise.
I’m reading about the Sumarians (5,300 – 2,000 B.C.) FROM THE TABLETS OF SUMER: 39 Firsts in Man’s Recorded History. The Sumarians originated civilization as we know it, and their demise may look a lot like ours too. In case you missed the memo, Sumer was earliest Mesopotamia in southern Iraq.
Is there more to senator-aspirant Roland Burris being turned away in DC, than political theater? Illinois governor Blagojevich was caught asking for payola to decide the appointment. Did he get the money? Without asking, the DC Dems are acting like the unassuming Mr. Burris is the pay-to-play golden ticket holder. I suspect the undistinguishing features which allay our suspicions about the septuagenarian may be the very traits which interest his sponsors.
I may be too impressionable, but I’ve warmed up to Sarah Palin. For President! The American two-party delusion needs a coup-de-grace, and doesn’t Palin have just authenticity enough to pull the trigger? Assail this logic if you can.
They’re still going at it at the Gazette, readers invective on the 
New face, her ass! Ugly Betty is a new face like Urkel was not Webster, Gary Coleman, Fat Albert, and Kid Dynamite. Like Alf was not Ronald Reagan.
When Consumer Reports Magazine set out to rate commercial chocolate chip cookies against each other, they needed a benchmark. To that end they hired professional bakers to optimize a chocolate chip cookie recipe. Because the cookie itself was a cultural convention, it was perhaps no surprise that reverse engineering backed them into the conventional Tollhouse Cookie recipe. But with a couple twists.